great responses from all, very amusing stuff, but topic is spinning round round and round, ground has been waked over and over, with no outcome but a stalemate from both camps !!!
That's because you can't lump mains, interconnect and speaker cables together.
Sorry Fred, but are you not saying a cable is a cable is a cable, you said that there is no differance, now you say somthing else ? is not copper/silver in both interconects and speaker cable, the same ?
Interesting to see the debate is hotting up after my contribution.
quote...."I believed that the BBC took the effort to train its people thoroughly in the principles of AC theory as applied to audio. "
I probably know more than you might imagine about physics, cables, etc! Also the BBC is full of engineers who use their eyes rather than their ears to determine facts. What might seem impossible to prove on paper can actually be true when you listen to it; (Here's a new one to discuss, the directionality of cable. Physicists say that it is rubbish, but many using their ears can hear the difference). For example the BBC use almost bell-wire for speaker connects and clip audio cable parallel with mains cable. Any talk of decent wiring or wiring methods would not be considered because of expense/time/man-power etc. Have a look at the cables specifically designed for Abbey Road studios to see just how serious engineers can be about cabling characteristics affecting sound! These were engineers, not manufacturers or HiFi Magazine journalists! Oh, and on that point I am honest about reviews I do; I won't plug a product if it is awful in order to personally gain out of it. That is not my style as a professional or as a human being!.
Back to cables, having designed cables and worked as an adviser to a few manufacturers I know the affect on audio from using different metals, dielectrics, padding, solder, connectors, and so on. The comment that cables will not affect low frequencies is also wrong. Just read up about the effects of capacitance or inductance on sound. IE a simple crossover unit!
I agree with another comment about usiing cables to improve apon a given audio set up ie; if the system is bright sounding then tone it down with an appropriate cable is cheaper than replacing the whole kit! I would never use cable to control the audio, prefering propoerly matched kit, but the cable*IS* still part of the system, indeed a major part, therefore you should expect to allow around 10% of total cost of kit on your cabling which should compliment the characteristics of the equpment it is connected to..
As a sound engineer I listen to the live sound in the studio before I mix/record it in the control room, so i know that my recording WILL sound like the real thing! Therefore when I listen to audio I use music i have recorded myself as I know how it should sound. Therefore I can hear whether the cable or indeed the hifi is good.
Finally, you should be trying to listen to music rather than hifi, and therefore whether A is brighter than B, etc. Is it musical? Can you listen for a long time? Is the music enjoyable? etc Just because it is the most expensive doesn't make it the best!
There, toned down my email, amd we all have our own opinion on things. I am just so lucky to be able to hear the difference between cables!. hehe
Right said Fred, and Carl this time, a topic the has been waked around for twenty odd years, it is virtually identical to two religious persuasions attempting to agree, we are not talking science, or physics, or even reality, we are talking belief and that is the problem.
Why, I make more sense of world politics than I do of these discussions, even religious differences are easier to understand, but the cable conundrum just keeps rolling on. Personally I don't think we will ever get convergence on this, notice how almost every area of design does converge, car designs, property design, bridge design and all other Hi Fi component design, but cables are a mystery, they defy design, they even defy physics. John...
I have to admit that when listening to music it does sound much better when I am wearing my glasses especially those with metal frames this gives a much brighter sound whereas plastic frames dulls down the sound. Sun glasses is good for rhythm and blues and closing my eyes seems to make the music go down in level.
Pity the BBC cant train their engineers to try not wearing suede shoes as this also make a difference to sound, do TV engineers see the picture with their ears I wonder, what a waste of our licence money I consider.
Funny how advisers to hi fi companies suddenly hear the difference between different cables when they are getting paid for their opinions I find it difficult to understand whey this is. I suppose the next bit of rubbish will be that what alcohol you drink makes a difference to what you see and hear. What a load of B******s so many people talk about on this subject. Gerald
I do not take kindly to being slagged off about my technical knowledge as I’m sure Pluto or Gerald or Fred or Bill would not be either, (apologies to anyone I missed here) so I will reply to each and every statement you make:
1] ‘I probably know more than you might imagine about physics‘, well you’ve clearly shown this not to be true, you have shown a deep misunderstanding of physical facts.
2] ‘the directionality of cable‘, get real! Since when did a piece of metal get directive. To have direction means something different one way to the other and that means harmonic distortion and that is one characteristic that cables simply do not have
3] 'For example the BBC use almost bell-wire for speaker connects', did you fail to realize that all their monitoring speakers were ACTIVE and therefore the fully balanced line level cable had no real influence.
4] ‘wiring methods would not be considered because of expense/time/man-power etc.’ Have you completely lost the plot here, the BBC is funded by the great populous, a virtually bottomless pit.
5] 'Have a look at the cables specifically designed for Abbey Road studios', As I remember it the Abby Road studio had a pretty bad reputation for sound quality when it first opened, largely due to the complete reliance on solid state, before the technology became mature.
6] ‘Back to cables, having designed cables’ err right how did you design a cable, did you visit planet zorg and get a new material, did you put a virgins weave into the construction or did you simply talk about it as you seem to do most of the time.
7] 'The comment that cables will not affect low frequencies is also wrong. Just read up about the effects of capacitance or inductance on sound.' again you miss the point low frequencies mean the capacitive and inductive elements have no effect, please go back to school.
8] ‘allow around 10% of total cost of kit on your cabling which should compliment the characteristics of the equipment it is connected to.’ complete nonsense, if I were to spend £1500 on a system I would never in a million years spend £150 on cables, please put your Hi Fi magazine hat down, this is not a paid for review.
9] No I don’t think you are lucky to hear the differences between cables I just think you are deluded to think that you can. No let me rephrase that - I just think that you are deluded.
Now mate you have entered this site like a ‘bull in a china shop’ you have told us all about your vast experience without even thinking about anyone else’s vast experience, do you for one moment think you are the only one on this planet to have an opinion, and 90% of what you say is opinion, as it is certainly not fact. Do you miss the point that many others have a deep history in sound reproduction and a passion for it, in fact have you even read my article about class ‘D’.
You’ll love my next one about cables ........... John...
Rubber soles work better than plastic, though personally I find the hi-fi sounds best when I'm not wearing anything on my feet. I do find wearing glasses improves the imagery.
I cannot be ars** to respond to your comments. They are so wrong! Yes I did read your Class D article last year. I agree with all your technical details relating to terminology and technology, though still prefer the class A or AB to anything Class D, but that is my personal view and not up for discussion. I'm not putting any magazine hat on. I have 40 years experience on hifi myself and i am not your mate. And Gerald, a lot of my work in cables/screening/mains conditioners etc has been done for free, so please don't assume you know me.
It is interesting that this was all meant to be a yes or no answer forum - it now seems its turned into a debate who is right who is wrong what facts support my argument etc. One group will probably not convince the other and it does seem by the tone at times people are getting a little to fired up - Im sure in the end we do not want to offend the other person who may have a different perspective to us.
Lets not go to war or this site like Carl has suggested. In the end more there are more important issues like poverty, how we treat each other. etc. Lets go back to the yes and no - please.
Electro - sorry to disillusion you, but there is no evidence of "real technical knowledge" in what Janine has written - merely unsubstantiated claims. Neither, for that matter, is there any evidence of his/her hearing ability which doesn't vary that much for 90% of the population within a given age group.
All we actually have is another apparent true believer who swallows and regurgitates the standard rhetoric without question - the usual codswallop you read in any of the high street magazines.
What saddens me is that none of the true believers appear the tiniest bit interested in finding out WHY. It really is blind acceptance of the hi-fi articles of faith that are more akin to a religion than any kind of science. Of equal concern is the true believers' inability to make a distinction between simple physical phenomena (a high capacitance cable is likely to sound less bright) and all kinds of ridiculous extrapolations.
If I believed that there really was an some X factor at work with cabling, I couln't rest until I had analysed it, at least to the point of superficial understanding. And as for the arguments that typically say "my ears/equipment/education/experience/whatever must be better than yours", they are beneath contempt.
Maybe you are right Steve, I personally come from a very old part of London and until a few years ago our water was distributed in lead piping, so that may be the answer. Could this be where the expression 'lead eared' comes from, if I used bottled water then I could in theory raise the bar to 'golden eared'.
Another look at theory and reality, yes a speaker cable if seroiusly minimalistic would change the sound.
An interconnect of seriously high capacitance could change the sound.
