Martin, apart from shouting your message you use terms like 'ABSOLUTELY APPALLINGLY AWFUL' if anything were that bad then it is obviously not the cable, if something sounds that bad then I would say it is a fault. Most systems today sound pretty good, even my TV sound is pretty good, it has no distortion to speak of, OK it does have response deficiencies but that is to be expected from the small speakers but it does have an inner depth, almost certainly class 'D' internally.
'EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND ACCORDINGLY WE INTERPRET/PROCESS THINGS DIFFERENTLY' simply not true, the human hearing system is well known and documented, whilst the person may be different, their ability to hear is rarely very different, in the same way an Eagle can see far greater detail than we can or a Bat can hear far higher frequencies than we can but human to human the differences are not that great. It is these statistically generalised findings that make standards possible, the CD standard etc. None came from individuals bleating on about cables or what they hear, no they came from measurement, statistical analysis and scientific processes.
Correct me if I'm wrong but is not the whole subject of music reproduction based on science and physics, or was the transformation from a cylinder player of 100 years ago to the CD player of today arrived at though playing with cables, now my turn to shout
CABLES HAVE NO PART TO PLAY IN A HI FI SYSTEM.
There are many other important areas to address:
1) speakers, still the biggest sounding differences one could hear, speakers are so far from the 'straight line responce' that CDs and amps are, then they become the culprit and a major one at that.
2) room acoustics, a seriously major issue that few seem to notice or address, but far far more important than cables.
3) mood and emotion, probably one of the biggest inputs to perceived quality. This outstrips all else put together, this is the biggest, belief, conviction, trust etc. This is the emotion that sales people latch onto, it is sales practice to sell emotion, most never realise it but that is what we are sold, the product is mealy a vehicle to sell that emotion
I think number 3 is the most difficult to understand but that does not make it any less significant, now in past years I would smoke a little 'wacky' and everything sounded better for it, was that a cable change, or an equipment change, NO it was a perception change. Exactly the same perception change that you get by spending hundreds on cables, I must admit though the 'wacky' was a whole lot cheaper.
RE JOHN FISHERS BET OF £1000 WITH RESPECT TO INTER-CONNECT CABLES.HERE IS MY TWO PENCE WORTH.I RECENTLY REPLACED MY HI-FI SYSTEM(I HAVE KEPT MY HARMON KARDON II CD PLAYER).I NOW HAVE A CAMBRIDGE AUDIO AZUR 540A AMP,THE AFOREMENTIONED CD PLAYER,A PROJECT DEBUT III TURNTABLE(WITH A CAMBRIDGE AUDIO PRE-AMP) & KEF C7 FLOORSTANDERS.
MY SPEAKER CABLES ARE VAN DEN HUL CLEARWATER.NOW TO MY POINT:THE COMPONENT INTERCONNECTS I BOUGHT AT THE TIME WERE MID RANGE CAMBRIDGE AUDIO.I PREVIOUSLY USED QED INTER-CONNECTS.THE RESULT OF USING THESE CAMBRIDGE AUDIO INTER-CONNECTS WAS ABSOLUTELY APPALLINGLY AWFUL.THEY WERE QUITE BRIGHT WITH LOUSY LOW FREQUENCY.IN FACT I COULDN'T STAND TO LISTEN TO MY MUSIC;IT WAS THAT BAD.AS A CONSEQUENCE I HIT THE NET IN SEARCH OF MY PREFERED CABLES.EVENTUALLY I CAME ACROSS SOME QED QUINEX I CABLES AT A GOOD PRICE.WHEN I RECEIVED THEM AND FITTED THEM I COULDN'T BELIEVE THE DIFFERENCE.VERY LOW BASS,CRYSTAL CLEAR VOCALS,AND WELL DEFINED TIGHT MID FREQUENCIES.AGAIN I WAS ABLE TO LISTEN TO MY MUSIC.
THIS SUBJECT IS VERY EMOTIVE.AT THE END OF THE DAY THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CABLES.IT ALL COMES DOWN TO WHAT SOUNDS GOOD OR RIGHT FOR YOU.I WOULDN'T BE PERSUADED TO CHANGE MY CABLE CHOICE.TO SOMEONE ELSE IT MIGHT NOT SOUND PARTICULARLY GOOD. THE OTHER THING WE ARE ALL BATTLING AGAINST IS OUR BRAINS AND OUR HEARING.EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT AND ACCORDINGLY WE INTERPRET/PROCESS THINGS DIFFERENTLY.THIS IS REALLY A NON ARGUMENT-BECAUSE THERE IS AND CAN NEVER BE A DEFINITIVE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION.WE WILL NO DOUBT ON OCCASIONS REACH MUTUAL AGREEMENT ON A PARTICULARLY 'CHEAP' OR BELLWIRE CABLE. HOWEVER THESE DISCUSSIONS DO HAVE A PURPOSE;IN THAT IT PROMOTES DISCUSSION AND ARGUMENT.WITH THE RESULT IT ADDS TO THE INFORMATION AND GIVES FOOD FOR THOUGHT WHEN CONSIDERING HI-FI COMPONENTS.ULTIMATELY THE ONLY THING TO LISTEN TO WHEN MAKING A CHOICE IS YOUR OWN EARS.
Oops. Placebo strikes again. Heh heh.
Dissect expensive cables and you'll find bog standard average stuff, dressed up to look pretty and more expensive, but if you remove the visual clues I guarantee you will struggle to hear the difference between any interconnects.
Quite right Fred, anyway I have blown the lot and now do not have a grand to bet but lets look at a few HI Fi nonsenses:
Bi wireing, who ever said that different frequencies interact down a cable, simply not true
Exotic interconnects, never have any been proven to be different in real tests, true.
Component supports and stands, has anyone even compared them and what were their findings!
Mains leads, now we are entering voodoo land as there is absolutely no truth is this scam whatsoever.
Interconnects, almost totally a scam 99% are just fine if clean and shiny so 99p tops.
Speaker leads, sufficient CSA (Cross Sectional Area) say 4mm, beyond that a total scam, say 50p a metre max.
Equipment stands, sorry unless you have a pretty bad vinyl player then complete and utter BS.
Speaker lead risers - a joke, oak cones - a joke, rhodium plated speaker plugs - a joke, green pens for the CD - a joke, Russ Andrews complete product line - a joke. 90% of the whole Hi Fi industry is a joke and a very expensive ones at that but having said that there are many real players who supply real equipment and research it to the limit. they do their best to offer real technical advantages and real 'value for money' products, take note though none of them offer 'snake oil cables' nor any other of the dubious products that are on offer.
Perhaps you should do a list of all the honest real players of the Hifi world to help us lesser mortals choose their equipment, I'm sure it would be a great help to a lot of people.
Fred,
I would be particularly interested in the line up of your HiFi system i sure it would be very instructive to everyone.
I would be particularly interested in the line up of your HiFi system i sure it would be very instructive to everyone.
I have
Musical Fidelity A1 amp, B&W 601 speakers (grilles removed) on Atacama stands filled with sand, Philips CD850MkII CD player,Pioneer 609 CD Recorder, Philips GA212 turntable with Shure M97HE cartridge, Leak Delta FM tuner, BK Electronics XLS200 Subwoofer standing on a lump of granite.
Gee another forum debating cables - what is happening over there. I have never been on a forum website (AV forum) where this issue gets repeated over and over again.
I just read the AV blind cable test - not conclusive hey - Pluto and John in one camp clearly saying no except Pluto said something about high frequencies (good article in absolute sound - showing the importance of high frequency as it affects the sense of air and space in the soundstage) however it seems that Wotslice and Paul could clearly tell the difference between cables, they must have better hearing I think I stick with them.
Gee another forum debating cables - what is happening over there. I have never been on a forum website (AV forum) where this issue gets repeated over and over again.
I just read the AV blind cable test - not conclusive hey - Pluto and John in one camp clearly saying no except Pluto said something about high frequencies (good article in absolute sound - showing the importance of high frequency as it affects the sense of air and space in the soundstage) however it seems that Wotslice and Paul could clearly tell the difference between cables, they must have better hearing I think I stick with them.
Have a good day.
Steve.
The answer IMO is to use low capacitance screened cable in your interconnects. Sorted!
Seems like a classic line up especially MF A1 amp , from memory a class A / AB amp they got quite hot and were a tad unreliable but had a warm and detailed sound not unlike a good valve amp .
I sure your system sounds very nice, but more than that it allows people to see where you are coming from sonically , it almost gives you an identity, so thank you for this info.
"Over 10 years ago, for example, I failed to distinguish a Quad 405 from a Naim NAP250 or a TVA tube amplifier in such a blind test organized by Martin Colloms (footnote 2). Convinced by these results of the validity in the Consumer Reports philosophy, I consequently sold my exotic and expensive Lecson power amplifier with which I had been very happy and bought a much cheaper Quad 405—the biggest mistake of my audiophile career!
Some amplifiers which cannot be distinguished reliably under formal blind conditions do not sound similar over lengthy listening in more familiar and relaxed circumstances."
"There is also the fact that the ability to reliably hear differences between hi-fi components varies considerably from person to person." ~ now that IS a true statement.
Noone seems to do a proper blind test the way 'I' want. They should do say, 10 diff tests with diff people each time. Take the 5 best listeners (or lucky guessers ) from each group and test ALL of them in one final test. THAT should prove once and for all if EVERYONE hears the 'same' or not...............
Id be willing to bet the pass rate would be FAR higher than normal.
Well in John's case it is a good idea as he seems to go out of his way to cause problems for everyone he comes into contact with not sure who he thinks I am but I know all his address details so it is about time someone sorted him out once and for all, I have seen him attack you on too many occasions to keep count of, OK so some things you say are a bit strange but all he can do is be insulting when ever it gets late a night and he has drunk too many tins, maybe this time he will learn his lesson, he was threatened by the amateur radio crowd many years ago for insulting someones wife and he got away with his legs unbroken but one day his luck will run out. Best Wishes Andrew.
Hi electro now there seems to be a little misunderstanding re: class, class 'A' beautiful full sound but only 25% efficient at full power, class 'B' at best 66% at full power output but has crossover problems that have been reduced over the years but are still there. Now class 'D' up to 95% efficient and does know nothing of the zero crossings and therefore can not have crossover distortion in any way.
Out of those three choices I know which I would/did make.
Now the line up Maranze CD6001 player, cable £20 from CPC (unbranded). amplifier Tripath module kit from Autocostruire, speaker cables Maplin 6mm OFC, speakers Magnat Vintage, Room - carpet, one wall curtained, back wall 'skyline diffusers, CD rack on the wall, oil paintings on the other walls, a fairly near anechoic environment. Mental condition - relaxed as a neut, emotional condition, just told Gerald Raklin to f***off so that is a plus point, financial condition - not bad considering the mistakes I make. Sexual condition - often called a w**ker so pretty astute there.
I am 'an open book' I have nothing to hide, a bit unusual in this day and age when everyone thinks their personal details are somehow sacrosanct, maybe I do trust the world more than I should but that guy with the loan will not know what hit him when the whole episode is played out.
I think your crossing the line here - whatever personal issues you have with john I think giving out his contact details is to much - I dont feel comfortable on this forum if peoples personal details are given out by other members with out there permission. Also John is it possibly for you not to use the f word etc.
It seems this has become more than a av forum - getting more personal.
Some amplifiers which cannot be distinguished reliably under formal blind conditions do not sound similar over lengthy listening in more familiar and relaxed circumstances."
Let's assume that the above might be true. How, in that case, do you test equipment without human factors coming into the mix?
There is no doubt that owning expensive and exotic hi-fi kit has many of the same attributes as owning an expensive car. Despite the fact that a ten year old Ford Fiesta is no less efficient a transport machine than a new Bentley, there an undeniable cachet associated with ownership of the Bentley.
Now I happen to be of that school that believes that a decent, correctly designed, power amp can be assembled in a factory at a cost of, say, a hundred pounds and that unit offered for retail somewhere between two or three hundred quid. My position is that there is little that can be done to improve a correctly designed amplifier. Nowadays, with all the computer-based tools available to designers, I submit that it's quite difficult to cock up an amplifier design unless you are trying to manufacture it for an unreasonably low price or are deliberately seeking to do something "different", and make a mess of it.
So my question is this. How do we compare the Fiesta amplifier and the Bentley amplifier purely on their ability to transport you to sonic heaven without physical beauty, pride of ownership and all the other fickle human factors getting in the way?
I have never been on a forum website (AV forum) where this issue gets repeated over and over again. 
) from each group and test ALL of them in one final test. THAT should prove once and for all if EVERYONE hears the 'same' or not............... 
