I started this thread to share my findings to let you all know about the improvements that i can hear by using the isotek disc and using weak magnets on both sides of cd's dvd's - after seeing how many people have read this article - i was wondering if any of you had tried it and what was your results - I'm sure we would all like to know - without any negative responses to your contribution - so don't be shy let us know ---- -----carl.
Thanks bill - hopefully others will try for themselves and let us know their results. -
I know now why i was disappointed with my hifi which sounded pretty good on audition at shop with new CD - but bland on my old Cd's once set up at home. - i have now bought a weak magnetized rubber sheet costing around £3. from arts and craft centre. placing disc on mat to the count of ten on both sides - works a treat. thanks ----Carl.
I have tried the isotek rejuvenation disc in part , it is a disc that was free with hifi choice containing 30 minutes or so of the isotek disc and some other tests , i can't say that there was a large improvement after use or indeed much difference at all but i will not dismiss it out of hand.
I have found it difficult to evaluate such products because as soon as you use them you start over analysing the music instead of just listening and enjoying it, so things tend to sound different because of the excessive concentration.
The best test i have found so far for all tweaking products is the shelf test , you put all the solutions, gadgets , discs, on a shelf near your system for an extended period of time , the ones that you keep using tend to be the ones that work , the products gathering dust should be filed in the bin.
Since this thread is about demaging discs i will try your tip to use magnates , the rubber sheet you mention sounds the easiest method and at 3 quid it's worth a try !
Carl you mention your hifi sounded good at the shop and bland at home, i would look at the room acoustics as a possible culprit , you may need some treatment in your room .
My system sounded the same at home with the new discs - (i actually put this down to new production methods ) ---- but my old discs sounded "crap" had same problem with last CD player that is why i bought new one - any way problem solved - now Ive got to enjoy all my collection sounding like they did when i first bought them - in the last two years ive changed cd player amp - speakers and cables because of this problem at a cost of more than £ 2000 - gave my boys old set up between them if only i had crystel ball ??? Carl.
Rod is a hero of mine. He became well known as Snake Oil Exposer extraordinaire...
One of the Important things about Rod is that rather than sit in an ivory tower and rubbish the Electronics Market in a purely theoretical manner....Rod obtains the offending item, tests it to within an inch of it's life in the Lab, then reports back to us interested parties...
I have a lot of time for Mr Elliot and he has some useful designs (mainly op-amp based) and the PCBs to go with them. He has worthwhile views on many facets of audio electronics. One of his best is the treatise on the most insidious of all the lies in audio, burn-in.
But as you are discussing the implications of mains filters, Mr Elliot makes a point of spectacular importance. In the USA, the supply is crap compared to the UK – and indeed, much of Europe. The quality of mains wiring and connectors is, on average, significantly lower than ours and the problem is compounded by the fact that their currents are more or less double ours; most electromagnetic (interference) problems are current related. It is probably a valid assumption that in the USA there is more legitimate need for help with the supply.
But before you condemn the opinions of the likes of John Fisher, it's worth doing a little reading hereabouts. You will find that John is an awfully long way from "one who sits in an ivory tower rubbishing the electronics market in a purely theoretical manner". It is only by understanding the underlying theory that it becomes possible to separate the facts from the bull.
And as ever, The Challenge is available to anybody who reckons that they can detect a difference between the sound of a CD that has been placed on a magnetized rubber mat before playing and one that has not.
To a small planetary body orbiting in the darkest and outermost reaches of the Solar System...
Hmmm...I don't recall making any personal references in that Post. Interesting how you automatically categorised John as a Troll....and in so doing insulted both him and myself.
The Mains Supply is corruptible and this is easily demonstrable. You also agree that RFI suppression is necessary but only in the US, a backward country where they do not have lawnmowers, fridges, washing machines, fluorescent lights, chargers etc, like us civilised folk here in the UK? You surely must realise, Pluto, you are being slightly pitiful here?? (Even allowing for stronger emissions, the principle is the same - just a question of degree - in fact I've always been staggered by how big a difference these cables make - "lower currents" not withstanding.)
My own experiments with those cables surprised me greatly. The procedure is along the lines of Linn's "rubbish in/rubbish out" approach i.e. source components benefit most, then progressively down the chain. Being a tight git one of my last purchases was the cable for the Power Amplifier. I was hoping that I could escape the expense of this one. Now in theory, the Amp should hardly benefit at all. To eliminate airborne pickup, for comparison I used an ultra short cable. I was staggered by difference. The braided cable was extraordinarily superior - even a detractor such as yourself would have instantly reached for his wallet. It was a case of room full of music vs room empty of music, room full of tuneful bass vs room empty of bass. Still desperate to keep that money in my wallet I forlornly rechecked the results. Overwhelmingly impressed, it was one of the easiest decisions I've ever made...
The Mains Supply is corruptible and this is easily demonstrable, sorry how is it corruptible and how easy is it to demonstrate this, I look forward to a technical thesis on the methods and results of 'easily demonstrate-able'.
Back on the Isotek Demagnetisation topic for a moment...
Obviously there are some fans here, also some doubts as to whether a CD can be "demagnetised". I'm surprised that no-one has asked the obvious question: what difference would it make if this demagnetisation occurs?
What I mean is, we know that a laser detects "pits" in the polycarbonate plastic and translates them into strings of 0's and 1's. If the CD is demagnetised, or if the static on the outside is reduced; as I see it, the laser is bound to still return the same sequence of 0's and 1's. Error checking ensures that each and every digit is picked up (or none at all).
So how would demagnetisation make any difference (in layman's terms?).
Good to hear from you again. As you may have gleaned from recent Posts, my ears were able to easily duplicate the outcome of Rod's experiments without recourse to test equipment, rendering further "Labs" unnecessary....and this is my preferred method for quickly demonstrating hifi upgrades to other people. Your ears, as I mentioned earlier, are a most invaluable tool....
Pluto has already conceded that filters and connectors make a difference (albeit grudgingly) and it's good to see that genuine Audiophiles are being given some credit at last! True, the US market has it's problems. Twice the Current Flux will generate twice the EMI, just as higher Current+loose connector will generate more RFI discharge. If the situation is horrendous for them it is still undeniably bad for us. Not is all rosy in the UK e.g. twice the supply voltage will double the distance at which arcing will occur. There are many products in routine use in the UK excess of 1kW which will give as many problems as the US e.g. hairdriers, electric heaters & ovens, lawnmowers, tumble driers, microwaves etc. Similarly the use of powerstrips to gang components together then plugged into a wall socket with loose connections could simulate US "problems".
One unfortunate bit of (old) news is that RFI suppressing cables are BANNED in the US. So I would think the US audiophiles invest more heavily in electronic filters to try to achieve the same thing?
To be honest, the effectiveness of filters is universally accepted except, apparently, in this small corner of the universe (apologies for the astronomical reference). I'm surprised that I'm still having to justify them !!
Pluto has already conceded that filters and connectors make a difference
Errr...sorry...where have I said that?
Filters make a difference only if you have a real problem and the mains side of your player has been designed by a dolt or the maker is so cheapskate as to think he can get away without following basic power supply design techniques. Perhaps his brother-in-law sells mains conditioners.
Describe please, as well as you can, the sonic differences that you believe your mains arrangements achieve.
Connectors make a difference when they are dirty or low contact-pressure junk. Not otherwise. As it happens, one of Rod Elliott's main gripes with USA power is that their mains connectors are low contact-pressure junk – a problem compounded by the higher currents involved.
Connectors make a difference when they are dirty or low contact-pressure junk. Not otherwise. As it happens, one of Rod Elliott's main gripes with USA power is that their mains connectors are low contact-pressure junk – a problem compounded by the higher currents involved.
Sorry, I'm really confused now. Where do connectors and filters come in to the demagnetisation of CD's? This doesn't seem to answer my question at all. I guess I'm too stupid for this thread!
No you are not too stupid for this thread, it's just every time any type of cable or mains conditioner is mentioned or even hinted at it causes a heated debate that takes over everything else, and it's not confined just to this thread .
I don't know exactly how magnetism or static affects the reading of the pits on a disc , i can only guess that they might affect or interfere with the laser beam in some way , or in the case of static arcing from the disc to the laser lens or sled. Can a magnetic field affect laser light ? perhaps we need a particle physicist on the team to answer that .
I'm definitely not a physicist - but if you put two magnetized objects together they will either attract -( pull together) or deflect ( push apart) this may be happening between the optic transport that has copper and steel. and the CD/DVDs that may be magnetized. or it could be static on the surface of Cd's that's my theory - but like i said physicist I'm not? - - Carl.
I don't know exactly how magnetism or static affects the reading of the pits on a disc , i can only guess that they might affect or interfere with the laser beam in some way , or in the case of static arcing from the disc to the laser lens or sled. Can a magnetic field affect laser light?
Part 1
And this is exactly why this thread is going off track – a lack of simple science. Let's get back to the basic way a CD works. It's a data carrier which includes several internal mathematical functions to confirm the accuracy of that data. The usual argument put forward by audiophiles to support their esoteric opinions is "jitter". In their minds, jitter introduces an easily understood analogue variable into a soundly constructed digital building.
But this fails to take into account the golden rule of CD audio, or in fact any digital audio system. Provided the data recovery is perfect the sound quality is entirely dependent upon the converter subsystems at either end of the process. The data recovered from the disc are fed into a large buffer before being passed on to the next stage, thus ironing out any deficiencies inherent in the system mechanics. Much like a large bucket with a small hole in the bottom. Keep the bucket reasonably topped up and the rate of outflow from the hole remains constant. Likewise, the data being presented to the next stage of a CD player (either the converter subsystem or, if you are using a digital output, the system that assembles an SPDIF data stream) are entirely devoid of any fluctuations caused by mechanical, magnetic or electrostatic irregularities.
As I stated earlier, this is all dependent upon the data recovery being perfect. Now for CD-ROM (and DVDs) I can prove such because there are strong error correction codes that determine my playback to be bit-perfect. Furthermore, it's a simple matter to determine how hard the error correction system is working and this in turn gives us a very good idea of how well the playback system is operating. If the ECC system is doing little work, it's a safe assumption that the optics & mechanics of the playback system (which, of course, include the disc itself) are not at all bad. Admittedly, to prove bit-perfect playback of a Red Book audio CD is harder because the error-detection system is not as good as it is for CD-ROM, but it is reasonable to suggest that if the CD medium was prone to problems due to stray magnetic or electrostatic fields we would know about it. Typical DVDs operate in a far harsher environment than typical audio CDs – proximity to all kinds of massive electrostatic and magnetic fields generated by tellies has not proved a problem. And with DVDs, bit-perfect playback is testable because of the robust error detection, in spite of the fact that DVD is an order of magnitude more critical than CD due to the extra data contained within the same size carrier.
Just to show that the creators of the Red Book CD were keeping up – and that they were well aware that bit perfect reading could not be proven, they devised a system of data interleaving so that any imperfect read would not have a massive impact on one particular sample but a minimal impact on a few samples spread apart in time. This, in combination with the error detection inherent to Red Book, ensures that data recovery is more or less perfect up to the point where massive audio defects show up – clearly audible clicks or muting.
It does not take a great leap from here to conclude that small electrostatic or magnetic anomalies cannot possibly have a generalised effect on imaging or tone, as claimed by the patent. I doubt that this patent would have been issued in any country outside the USA or Japan (modelled on the USA system). Its claims are vague and improvable – a cheap shot to cash in on the old adage that a fool and his money are easily parted.
Charles use link it gives an insight to your question on optic reading.
Um, with respect - that's a link to a patent. Many patents are simply nonsensical, and whilst I'm not saying that this one is, there's no reason to think that it has any real authority just because it's been approved.
"It is also generally believed that the information recording disc is a digital recording medium whose recorded information does not deteriorate even if it is reproduced a number of times. However, it has been found that tone quality and image quality deteriorate when the information recording disc is reproduced several times,"
...if they really think that, then I don't regard their product with any respect. That's like saying, I copy a digital photo on my PC a thousand times, and the thousandth copy will be inferior to the first . No: the thousandth copy will be exactly the same as the first.
Wow Pluto serious stuff, but technically correct and very revealing, if there were any merits in demagging a CD then how much more effective it would be on a DVD with it's far higher 'bits per square inch' so if an improvement was to be seen then it would be far more apparent on DVD playback.
Sorry IMO the greatest improvement most of us hear when we try a new piece of kit, is that we listen more attentively and therefore hear things that we had missed before, therefore put all the new information down to the new kit, not to the fact that we are listening more attentively.
Now some time ago I suggested the 'Higher Fi' drug, a pill that could enhance ones hearing beyond normality, it was rather 'poo hooed' but I bet it would be a great seller, with many stating the advantages, and many swearing about its positive results. The point I am trying to make here is that hearing is probably the most suggestive of all human weaknesses, there is almost nothing that can be so radically changed by some simple persuasion, try and tell someone with recurring back-pain that 'it is all in their mind' and I hate to think what their reply would be, but offer them the latest 'back pain cure drug' they try it and all is cured. Now note many of these 'mirical' cures are in fact 'placebo' drugs, i.e. they actually have no effect at all, but if you believe the doctor who prescribed them then the chances are you will have found a cure.
Personally I believe this to be what the Hi Fi industry is all about, only 'schoolboy' theory will tell us that there is no such thing as RFI suppression cables, it takes very little understanding to realise that switched mode power supplies are far less sensitive to mains borne interference, and analogue supplies are pretty immune to it anyway. As to magnetic or electric fields interfering with an infrared light source or its reflections, well that must be even further from the truth. As I said earlier if it was a known problem then it would be compounded many times in DVD playback, and that seems not to be the case.
Sorry the truth is not what many of us want to believe, far cosier to stay in the myths of our pier group, not to be outspoken. Finding truths is difficult, it does mean 'crossing the barriers', but the results are 'a freedom of expression' and 'a freedom of thinking', now that can open the mind to new and exciting routes, and new friends beyond our existing pier group, a whole change of life, scary or what. No wonder so many of you stay in the 'comfort zone' of misunderstanding.
Not trying to be nasty, but I think you did concede....
"...But as you are discussing the implications of mains filters"..."It is probably a valid assumption that in the USA there is more legitimate need for help with the supply."
(..and RFI Suppressing cables ARE Mains Filters.) Nuff said ?
"Describe please, as well as you can, the sonic differences.."
My pleasure. (I thought I did that with my little story about the Amp cable?) What must be particularly disquieting from the point of view of one of your sensitivities is the fact that although it was many years ago I can still clearly remember the impact that cable made on a pretty substantial Naim amp (gone now), as if it was yesterday. How many mods have you done lately that left such an impression? Not subtle but powerfully memorable. I hasten to point out, as I hinted earlier, that there is some duplication between filters and cable i.e. the presence of cables will diminish the impact of added electronic filters and there is a clear ceiling where additional upgrades will be barely perceptible. It's the law of diminishing returns I'm afraid.
Still on the subject, I believe I mentioned the effect on my TV a while back? My lounge has a poor acoustic. Without help, dialogue was indistinct and difficult to understand. Re-introducing a filter or 2, helps considerably and makes voices clearer and more intelligible. Even with these simple tweaks, the sound from television exhibits greater dynamic range and resolution, is far more natural, with a less "reproduced" or electronic character to it. Allied to superior soundstaging the effect is good enough to turn a humble 8 yr old Sony into a virtual hifi system (and still using the internal speakers).
Reproduced harshness and distortion from an analogue signal will destroy any illusion of reality that the signal is trying to convey. It therefore becomes more difficult to make the system "disappear" and be replaced by a genuinely musical experience.
Parts 1 & 2. An impressive diatribe on the Red Book CD process. I hear what you are saying but this is the same idealistic stuff you tend to spout about power supplies. If your argument was irrefutable it wouldn't be possible to gain sonic advantages by e.g. simple cleaning of the CD? I don't have very many CDs but I clean mine (by removing chemical residues etc) and DO hear a difference every time. It cost peanuts (literally pennies) but the sound is clearly more natural, organic, less "edgy" and smooth afterwards. CD is not my medium of choice anyway, 2-ch Analogue is preferred.
What I would like to know, Pluto, is one simple thing : Does your acquired knowledge absolutely forbid you to try something as simple (and reportedly effective) as e.g. a Ringmat Developments Statmat ? In other words does it cause mental conflict which results in zero action?
