Sorry Bill it was maybe a bit strong, and no I have not sourced the drug yet, but when I do I will try it for 'educational purposes only', but probably in vast quantities.
Bill - I think you are reading more into my words than was actually written. I was merely paraphrasing your hero Rod Elliot in his contention that the USA is probably has dirtier mains, on average, than the rest of the western world. Higher currents, poor connectors and lack of federal regulation may all contribute. My inference from this is that there might be significantly more legitimate need for filtering there than here.
Perhaps I have always been blessed with decent mains - I have never lived anywhere other than a largely residential area so it's possible that I have never suffered from the problems I imagine might ensue from having industrial premises as neighbours. I do possess a couple of quite decent mains filters and frankly, they don't make a jot of difference.
You refer, in wonder, to the effect that your filters have in resolving the difficulties you attribute to poor room acoustics. I have to say, Bill, that you really are adding 2 and 2 and making 5. The two issues are chalk and cheese – a kind of alchemy at the very best.
You state that you clean your CDs regularly and it always makes a difference. i cannot possibly explain this in absentia. For all I know, the mechanics/optics of your player could be operating right on the margin of failure, and fastidious cleanliness might keep things just the right side of the line. But I have to say that it's far more likely that this is yet another example of the placebo effect. What do YOU think your cleaning process is achieving? How do YOU account for what you hear?
Does your acquired knowledge absolutely forbid you to try something as simple (and reportedly effective) as e.g. a Ringmat Developments Statmat?
Not at all, but as I regularly have the opportunity of comparing CD playback with the master from which it was derived I know, in most cases, that the CD is not causing degradation.
does it cause mental conflict which results in zero action?
It might – placebo works both ways, which is why, when making the comparisons referred to above, it is done by silent AB switching which is very revealing of discrepancies. Thus we arrive very nicely at my other hobby horse. I have never understood why audiophiles are so vehemently against AB testing. My logic can only answer this one way; the reason you deny the only test method capable of revealing the truth is that you don't want the truth.
Sorry Bill but I hate to harp on about this but exactly what is an 'RFI cable' does it contain inductors or capacitors, or are we referring to a new 'twist' of conductors. Have you ever seen response plots of these cables that show what they suppress and pass. What exactly is the cleaning process that results in your improved perception, a perception that I personally have never heard since the introduction of CDs in the 80's
Maybe I am a complete 'plebe' in this my most loved area of life, maybe I am missing all the great moments, but in all honesty have rearly heard a system better, weather that be at a top end Hi Fi show or at serious mates system. I can not imagine a quieter background, silence is silence, nothing from the mains, a dynamic range that literally 'takes your breath away', bass slam that can only be felt, please tell me what more could I ask for, or expect. Maybe in a few years 24bit resolution, maybe 120dB dynamics, maybe a response to 30KHz., but right now it is streets ahead of anything I had in the 80s
In time it will come, but there is no way that treating a CD will add resolution in the same way that quirky 'mains leads' will improve resolution. So the only way to improve the final outcome is through a change in fundamental technology.
Lets look at some history here, the cylinder players of the 1910s were the only thing at the time, 78RPM was a great improvement, the 33RPM microgroove disc was a another great improvement, and add to that stereo, most would not disagree that the CD was another improvement. Then came the snake oil charlatans, then came the cable claims, then came all the other rubbish that make up the Hi Fi industry of today, for all of it there has been NO SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT IN THE MEDIA, therefor there has been no significant improvement in the results.
Computers never became more powerful or faster by changing the mains lead, or by cleaning them in expensive liquids, no they became faster though developments in silicon technology, reduction of feature sizes etc. none of this came about through people trying things on the outside, no , but because of developments in the fundamental technology. The same will happen in Hi Fi, any major change will be through new technology, not through 'playing around' with insignificant parts of the system. Now I know that you may be convinced of some subtle improvements created by a small change, but unless they can be substantiated by ABX comparison then they are not really real, and others may not appreciate them.
information does not deteriorate even if it is reproduced a number of times. However, it has been found that tone quality and image quality deteriorate when the information recording disc is reproduced several times
The statement has misled you to believe he is talking about a CD recorder - he is in fact talking about compact disc re: producing music a number of times on a CD player.
Last night I ripped an audio CD ten times in succession on my £7.95 CD-ROM drive at an average speed of 40× faster than it would be read in a real-time player. Each rip was identical. It stands to reason that any magnetic or electrostatic effect causing detrement to the read will become more pronounced as the read speed increases, as there is that much less time for the laser optics to establish the physical state of the disc before things have "moved on".
A question for Carl, information does not deteriorate even if it is reproduced a number of times. Note that is all a CD carries, so how can 'tone' and 'image' deteriorate. The statement is itself a contradiction, if the information is the same then any change heard must be imagined.
Contradiction - the words on the patent site are not mine.
I am no expert in this field just some one that read on another forum an article on this subject and tried it out - now you say its all in my imagination - i don't need to defend my words or my imagination - like i said before it worked for me - if you don't take my word that is your free will ! --- --- - - Carl.
I am not wishing to have a go, but in your own words 'information does not deteriorate' then how can the supleties? Now a question like that does need thinking about, if you can see a possible reason then please lets all hear about it. IMO just reading about it is enough to set a seed of doubt in your mind, and that is sufficient to alter perception, however I don't understand the TD in Morse.
Now Pluto's test proves many things, if a CD can be replicated consecutively ten time' at high speed' with no degradation, and on a very cheap player, then the player can probably be removed from the 'listening experience' equation. I have to admit my own observations here, after using a Sony Walkman type CD player for a time I eventually 'upgraded' to a top dollar Maranze upsampleing DVD/CD player and noticed no improvement or even a change in sound quality.
words are off the patent site. they are not mine go look ?
I am just as puzzled as you all are - i was lost for explanation to results - all the rules went out the window i know it dose not make sense if there is any one out there that can explain to it i would like to know as well ???
The point is that a CD is read by shining a light on it (albeit laser light). This picks up all the information (strings of binary digits) on the CD. After 1000 plays, all the information is still picked up by the laser just the same. So if the CD contains a photo, the photo is bound to look exactly the same as the first time the information was read. It's exactly the same information, so this has to be the case.
Should some of the information become unreadable (e.g. the CD surface is badly scratched), chances are that there will be an error reported by the software that checks the input from the laser scan. This might be a checksum error, or perhaps the photo will be completely unreadable.
What won't happen is the readable photo image degrading: so there won't be a loss of colour, or blurring. In the same way, a music CD may become unreadable if it's damaged, but it's not going to lose sonic range, or tone or whatever. If that appears to happen, I can only suggest that it's a purely psychological effect (don't underestimate psychology: our "hearing" is extremely unreliable and subjective).
Actually, I rarely listen to CD's: SACD's are vastly superior and I can't imagine anyone with an expensive hifi being satisifed with a CD if the same music is available in SACD form. Investing in an SACD seems to me to be a much more guaranteed path to musical enjoyment rather than worrying about some dubious demagnetisation or cleaning mechanism. But you all doubtless already know that, so I apologise if I'm preaching to the converted!
Had a quick look, immediate impression, a load of quasi scientific mumbo jumble, as Plutos experiment proves if nothing changes in ten readings at high speed then what can happen in one reading at normal speed? When magnetics affect polycarbonate and aluminium then were are definitely in the 'twilight zone', suggestibility seems a far more plausible explanation IMO.
Note also that thousands of patents get granted out there that have no scientific base, and many are simply 'not true' so don't believe for one moment that a 'patent' gives an idea of any credence, for the most part it does not. I did notice that many of the patent ideas were to do with magnetic media, now that is a different matter.
This whole 'magnetic' treatment takes on the same occult and unscientific theme that 'chryogenacal' treatment offered a few years ago, or some of the wonderful 'mains conditioners' that you just plugged in somewhere near the equipment and they 'polarized the electron flow' or some other complete nonsense. Unfortunately I will repeat this again, our perceived hearing is so subject to suggestion that almost anything can affect it, quite apart from mood, state of mind, even reading an article, almost anything can affect our perception in a dramatic way, and often completely without our knowledge.
How do the copies sound ? can your ears detect any difference from the original cd.
Don't know yet - only had time to create 10 files and compare them for consistency. But are you seriously suggesting that identical files could give birth to non-identical discs? That could only happen if the error margins were well beyond the scope of the ECC system.
But in the interests of discovery, over the weekend I shall waste 10 blanks by making a copy of a copy of a copy, 10×. We shall see if there is any difference to be had between original and Generation X.
My experience is that home burned CDs on decent media typically have far fewer C1/C2 errors than commercial discs, so it is actually possible to produce copies that are better than the original.
"Sorry Bill but I hate to harp on about this but exactly what is an 'RFI cable' does it contain inductors or capacitors, or are we referring to a new 'twist' of conductors?"
As someone who has recorded 50 distinguished years in electronics I feel it is your privilege to harp on as much as you wish, my friend. (Apologies for the boring "smileys" BTW - I've not had a chance to download anything else, so you may see this symbol again and again...)
Also may I say it's a relief to see there is someone even more "middle-aged" on the Forum than I (!)
It's my pleasure to give a more complete description. You've probably heard this before but here goes...The RFI suppressing cables I referred to (and sincere apologies to Carl for being off-thread again, I promise I'll be back on shortly) do not contain any passive or active components. Filtering is achieved by the cable itself. The construction consists of between (usually) 6 and 24 individual conductors of varying wire gauge depending on the complexity. These are individually intertwined and woven together in a manner not dissimilar, although not identical, to that of an RF ground screen in a standard coax. The principle on which it operates is that the conjunctions or crossover points create myriad small capacitances which are claimed to suppress RFI, both incoming from the Mains Ring and also spurious RFI which the cable receives "from the Ether".
"Have you ever seen response plots of these cables that show what they suppress and pass?"
My next answer may come as no surprise. No I regret I have never seen any response plots or indeed data of any kind published ("Now why does that not surprise" I hear you say), either by the manufacturers themselves, or indeed by the Hi-fi Reviews that have been conducted (You are going to slaughter me for this aren't you )
(ref your system) "...but right now it is streets ahead of anything I had in the 80s"
Pleased to hear that you are thoroughly enjoying your current setup John. That's what makes it worthwhile. I can honestly say that even at the advent of a digital download era, and as vinyl sales continue to increase, I've never been more excited by not just by my system, but the industry. Sadly the new vinyl isn't a patch on the pre-1990s stuff but, vinyl is vinyl. Flameproof suit on, I would use the visual analogy of vinyl as "SupercinemaScope" while CD is merely a pale 4:3 cartoon. I can elaborate later when everyone has fully recovered!
"Lets look at some history here, the cylinder players of the 1910s were the only thing at the time, 78RPM was a great improvement, the 33RPM microgroove disc was a another great improvement?"
LPs! Now you're talking, but I don't think the analogue industry was without it's gadgets and tweaks (many are still around) perhaps you are romanticising a little? Remember the Pixall, Dustbug, LP cleaning fluids, turntable mats, VTA adjustment systems, Zerostat (it's been around a long time - I've burned out 4 of them!)
Computers : If anyone ever needed more evidence of the robustness and interference immunity of digital systems - there you have it !
OK to Charles SACD is something that I have thought about but having a huge collection of CDs made me reluctant to follow, but on the strength of your letter I think a venture into SACD maybe worth while. However I don't wish to repurchase my whole collection but would love to hear 'Enigmar' in a new format, and maybe some 'Floyd' stuff.
OK to Charles SACD is something that I have thought about but having a huge collection of CDs made me reluctant to follow, but on the strength of your letter I think a venture into SACD maybe worth while. However I don't wish to repurchase my whole collection but would love to hear 'Enigmar' in a new format, and maybe some 'Floyd' stuff.
John...
As it's off topic I'll keep this short. I have no particular axe to grind about this, nor any connection with the site, but let me suggest http://www.sa-cd.net/ as a starting point. There's only 1 Pink Floyd album, but it's a belter...
