To Dave Oliver, you recently replied 'Christopher No, you haven't missed any rules or codes of conduct - we just haven't felt the need for a formalised version so far. It's probably about time though, so I'll sort something out soon. Thanks for the tip.'
What was that all about, surely rules on an open forum can only stifle expression and discussion, maybe I have the wrong 'end'
I'd settle for people being respectful and polite and not getting personal. If not then people get alientated and the debate can end up generating more heat than light.
Only if people feel to express themselves without fear of riducule or abuse will an open forum be a success and people will choose to express their thoughts. I for one think than sensible rules can effectively facilitate debate.
From the last few posts do I take it that actually we agree that different cables affect the sound but in some cases believe that the effect is not easily discernible?
My comments on bellwire were made genuinely. If the cable doesn't make a difference then you should hear no difference from the cheapest to the most expensive wires. I probably listen to my stereo at about 2W per channel normally up to around 20W per channel or so (which sounds twice as loud as 2W due to those pesky decibels) so bellwire is well capable of dealing with it. In fact I started with QED 79 strand which is relly just chunky bellwire before moving to QED Silver Anniversary XT and then on to DNM Reson which is back to simple solid core cable. All sound different and the sound inproved as a result of each change.
Why would bellwire affect speaker cable passing a signal and not affect a lower level (more delicate?) but otherwise exact same signal elsewhwere? The components at each end are different but surely we can't just right off the thought that there might be some difference especially when numerous people have reported it. Can they really all be wrong? Why not, if you are so inclined, go to a good hifi shop and ask them to demonstrate this to you and see what happens.
Robin, in reply to (which sounds twice as loud as 2W due to those pesky decibels) No No No this perception has nothing to do with Decibels it has all to do with the 'way we hear' that is where Decibels came from, not the other way round. Do you honestly believe a good Hi Fi shop will give you an honest answer, come on, get real, these people are out to sell and that is what they do best. When I want to find the truth I will first, think about the problem, decide what makes sense, then research the issue, check out websites etc. and only when I am happy with what I've found will I venture into a Hi Fi shop and make a purchase. Some years ago in a 'Hi Fi' shop the salesman tried to convince me of the importance of 'interconnects', as the shop had two floors, I suggested that he went to the other floor, then I would change the cable, to one of my choice, then he could come back and tell me wich I had chosen. A reasonable test in my mind, but he felt it was totally 'unfair' and how could he possibly tell.
Why not, if you are so inclined, go to a good hifi shop and ask them to demonstrate this to you and see what happens.
I used to do something like this, with a twist. I would ask, "rig me up three different wibblers (wibblers being whatever you might be interested in at the time - but not loudspeakers which are too easy), one at about £100, another around £1000 and the third at £5000". The amounts would vary depending upon the nature of the wibbler but I'm sure you get the idea. Once they had done the rig I would say, "right - leave the room briefly and I might juggle some of the cabling around. When you return, I want YOU to pick out which wibbler is which.
Oddly enough, no shop I've tried has ever agreed to this.
Why would bellwire affect speaker cable passing a signal...
Too high a resistance messes up damping factor. We go to a great deal of expense to ensure that our power amp designs exhibit a source impedance of <.1R. I'm certainly not going to mess this up by placing some wire with 10 times that amount of R in the circuit.
Find a decent hifi shop, listen to their advice and then listen and trust your ears.
Decibels are a logarithmic expression of two ratios so I don't understand your point. a 3dB increase is a doubling of power and a 10dB increase (which also happens to be 10x the power) is required to perceive a doubling of volume. So perception and decibels are linked rather than having nothing to do with each other. Check out McIntosh amps. The meters are usually marked as something like 0.06W, 0.6W, 6W, 60W and 600W: a doubling of volume each time.
I'll be sure to avoid light hearted remarks in future.
I would have agreed with the salesman. You were obviously not interested in what he was saying or making a purchase or you would not have done so. Doing that is hardly an A/B comparison is it.
I for one would rather listen to what someone has to say, consider it with an open mind and make my decision based on my experiences along with the advice given, which I may or may not choose to accept, than make my decision first.
It looks like debate has perhaps run its course on this thread now.
Robin, I am probably the one person on this forum that you do not need to teach the basics of Decibels to, I understand what power levels are and how they may be represented, I understand VU and PPM metering, I have been in the industry for probably longer than you've been on the planet. RE the quote:I'll be sure to avoid light hearted remarks in future. well I don't understand the meaning of that statement at all. And as to 'I would have agreed with the salesman' well that speaks volumes of your 'gullibility' and 'naiveness' then you can only expect to pay many thousands and still not find the Hi Fi nirvana that we all search for, the place to look for answers is in the 'physics' books, in the professional magazines, on the web, and through listening. The last place to find any truth is from a Hi Fi salesman in a shop. Allow me to run a truth past you, then think about it, and then research it, then come to your own conclusions, and that is the events of the 911 'collapse' I bet you believe the 9-11 report of what happened, but if you look a little deeper then you may notice that the facts do not ‘stack up‘, the idea that this was a ‘terrorist’ attack simply does not equate, the idea that a couple of planes brought down two of the largest and most over engineered buildings the world has ever seen does not equate, not to mention the ‘fact’ that WTC7 collapsed just hours after the others, NO, this was not a terrorist attack, but a government instigated and organised demolition, done in some way to reward the ‘lease holder’ of said buildings that were losing rent year after year, and create a reason to go to war! Now think about what I've said, research it yourself and see what conclusions you draw.
Dear, dear me. Debate has definitely run its course on this thread - we're now into Sept 11th conspiracy theories on a discussion about cables! I've seen your other posts too and I wondered whether this may appear here. I don't know whether to laugh or to cry, and John, you have no idea what I know about what happened on that day and the months and years that ran up to it. Those of us who really know what happened will take those secrets to the grave with us. You couldn't even begin to guess. Even you wouldn't believe it...
As I've said before, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Robin, re: Dear, dear me quote 'and John, you have no idea what I know about what happened on that day' No your right, but I would dearly love to know, I would love to know the truth about all that happened, and I mean that, it is not a passing interest no, it is a deep rooted interest in world affairs that interests me, the possibility of another world war that interests and frightens me, please what really happened, what was the run up, I am more than willing to listen to your views I quote 'Those of us who really know what happened will take those secrets to the grave with us' please don't do that, at least make your views public. Even you wouldn't believe it... yes I think I may, as I have studied this question for many months now, and have the DVD 'loose change' on my player. Yes I have studied many aspects of the scenario and have come to some distressing conclusions of my own, probably not too different to your own. Hence I am more than interested, no I am intrigued, and fascinated by your input Here is a little input that I was going to put up before but the time never seemed right. but now I think it is:
Lets relate all this back to the 9/11 scenario, I bet you believe the 9-11 report of what happened, but if you look a little deeper then you may notice that the facts do not ‘stack up‘, the idea that this was a ‘terrorist’ attack simply does not equate, the idea that a couple of planes brought down two of the largest and most over engineered buildings the world has ever seen does not equate, not to mention the ‘fact’ that WTC7 collapsed just hours after the others, NO, this was not a terrorist attack, but a government instigated and organised demolition, done in some way to reward the ‘lease holder’ of said buildings that were losing rent year after year. But a major reason was to put the blame on another country and therefore create a reason to go to war, as has happened, this is the textbook way of starting a war, ask Hitler, he will tell of how he bombed a prestige German building, then blamed it on an attack from else ware, a reason to retaliate or what.
Back to the debate in hand, if all speaker cables, expensive or cheap have certain amounts of interference capability to the original signal, why can't we get rid of the speaker cable altogether and use wireless. After all we can speak to the united States, India etc, or all around the world via satelites and they sound as if they are in the living room with us. Now surely if the transmitter and receiver were of a significant quality and bearing in mind we only need to send those signals through our living room or music room or whatever, there would be little scope for interference to the signal. I notice speaker manufacturers are going this way especially with cinema sound. Now surely the technology is more advanced today than it was perhaps 20 years ago. I think we all benefit from the excellent reception we get on our telephones be it cable or satelite. these signals are transmitted at 100's of 1,000's of miles within any given split second, so to be able to get rid of all this talk about cabling and what cables can and can't do, why can't we use the air within our listening rooms, surely this makes sense.
Robin re your quote 'Debate has definitely run its course on this thread' yes I believe it has, but I would be more than interested to know the secrets: Those of us who really know what happened will take those secrets to the grave with us As I am deeply concerned with the events of that day and the ramifications of those events, yes I am more than interested. Then you go on to say You couldn't even begin to guess. Even you wouldn't believe it... Well try me, I am a good listener, and have an open mind, I really want to know, and understand, not for any gain but just to understand if the truth that I understand and believe in is indeed the real truth. Sounds like you know many facts that I don't, so don't take your secrets to the grave, e-mail them to me privately, that I may learn more about an event of which I believe no 'main stream' reports have reported accurately. I look forward to your reply.
John...
PS It has not been easy to write this, as it is a difficult subject, but underneath I do have a passionate interest, therefore something I do not want to let 'slip by'.
One of your posts has been removed John - discuss the subject in general by all means, but no denigration of individuals or individual companies please.
Dave, do you mean that 'you have removed one of my posts' simply because I name a company that sells 'snake oil' by the bucket load, or that I have said anything personal? If I do not have the freedom to express an opinion then what is the point of a forum? Wake up Dave to the many cons out there, the company I mentioned is only one of very many, you may not like what I say, but it is the truth, and in my mind that makes it worth debating. To my mind the Hi Fi scenario has fallen into two major camps, one the professional engineer, the recording engineer, the people who make what we listen to, the one we all compare, for our reference of listening pleasure. And the other, the self proclaimed 'cable freaks' that believe everything can be corrected by spending obscene amounts on leads. I leave you to come to your own conclusions.
John…
PS If your whole site is sponsored by ‘snake oil’ companies then I can understand your concern, but if so, then may I suggest you find a more rewarding occupation! You could after all become the leader of the truth, you could become the ‘non snake oil’ believer, you could become the Hi Fi messier, you could then become a leader in Hi Fi truths instead of hiding behind, and being supported by these silly cable companies. Given time and tenacity I will take one of these companies to court over their claims, and Russ Andrews would be at the top of my list. If you wish to earn your living from a mega lie then so be it, but personally I would rather be a pauper and understand the truth.
Let us all know when you do John. There's plenty of scope to debate the issue (as you've been doing very eloquently) without resorting to personal insults, even though you'd clearly like to. If you can't resist, then by all means find another forum from which to debate, but if you wish to continue using ours, please refrain from insulting specific people or organisations.
Oh dear, What did i start? but i still believe the odin cable prices are a total joke,if you need say,two metres per side per speaker that would work out at roughly £40.000 plus interconnects at £10.000 total £50.000 you can buy a porche or top of the range mercedes for that its a total and utter complete joke, i rest my case. Mick.
i still believe the odin cable prices are a total joke
As I have observed elsewhere on this forum, the members of The Cult of The Cable demonstrate an uncanny similarity with religion.
1. They have a fundamental belief that defies normal logic.
2. They have a doctrine of salvation. True belief (not to say sufficient funds) will get you perfect sound.
3. They have the utmost faith in the integrity and honesty of the clergy - reviewers and dealers.
And so I could continue. Until folks accept that audio is in fact a science (perhaps an art) and NOT a question of belief in mystic metallurgy, The Cult of The Cable will remain trapped in the dark ages.
Comparing the problems inherent to a bit of cable with those of a complete radio subsystem, twice over for stereo, guess.....
The followers of TCoTC would remind you that, even with a wireless system, you still need interconnects between the various bits of kit at either end of the radio link.
In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if the cost of engineering a suitable radio system (20kHz bandwidth, 90dB dynamic range, absolute phase accuracy) cost more than a set of Nordost cables. That settles that, then ;-)
