...It's a free country and I'm acting no differently from you...as you can see?
John you know exactly what I'm saying from the huge reservoir of previous discussion on this subject. From that it is obvious that you like CD while I prefer Vinyl.
I do not use a cylinder player from 1910...so why mention this ?
Vinyl is an evolution of the old cylinder player but vastly improved...and it is a refined medium which has experienced far more development time than CD.
CD's immediate future IS obsolescence. It WILL be replaced by a better digital medium.(In fact they've been trying hard enough)
You yourself declared in an earlier post that you like CD but would prefer a new version with 24 bit 96K sound....therefore you yourself acknowledge it's weaknesses?
The reason I mention cylinders is simply to reiterate that it is how recording started, yes vinyl is a development of it but it is the same technology, CD is a designed technology, one that was designed to make recordings reproducible, yes it is 'first generation' just like the cylinder was 'first generation', it will get better just as cylinders got better. A major advantage of 96K recording is not the added information but more that the 'reconstruction' filters work so much better, as for 24 bit, in acoustic terms I bet very few can even hear the difference.
I do not agree that CD has a weakness, but I will agree that it can be improved, and it will be!
Back to your start point, 'I do not use a cylinder player from 1910...so why mention this?' because that is the technology that you still believe in, and believe to be the best.
If it's any consolation I don't believe DAB radio to be anything like as good as FM radio, I don't believe MP3 to be as good as CD, however I am surprised at how good NICAM is, and that is a compression system. However unlike MP3 it is a 'lossless' system. IE it can recreate the original bit pattern, in the same way that CD error correction can recreate the original bit pattern, if one recreates the original bit pattern then one recreates the original sound.
Sorry to hit you so hard here with facts, but what I say is not 'my opinion' or 'what I think' no what I say are real scientific facts, take it or leave it. I had the same difficult decision over the facts I discovered re 911. Despite all my reservations, all my media input, all my beliefs. I had to see some truth, difficult as it was there appeared no other truth, devastating as it was, it had to be true.
"...most vinyl was already mastered in digital anyway."
This is so far off the truth it's criminal misrepresentation.
John, we've been down this road before and widespread use of Digital recording did not occur until the mid-80's just before the onset of CD. This more or less coincided with the commercial decline of vinyl, so there couldn't have been that many made.
In fact we even spoke about the timeline of Sony PCM digital recorders.
I, and many other people have sizeable collections purchased before this period and I can assure you they are anything but digital...
The CD simply had so much going for it that vinyl was to become doomed to the backwaters of obscure niche markets.
Vinyl sales are significantly up while CD sales are significantly down and dying...
You clearly haven't been keeping up with current events Pluto...CD dealerships closing or resorting to vinyl sales again.
Sorry....WHO exactly, is doomed again...???
Bill - a disingenuous argument if I ever heard one. Sure, vinyl sales might be up and CD down, but I also hear that sales of Fords are down this year while Aston Martin's numbers are up. However, there seem to be rather more Fords about than Astons and that position is unlikely to change.
In any case, don't get me started about statistics of media company sales. While they whinge endlessly about CD sales, they conveniently fail to point out that the combined take on CD, DVD and games is way up. Most normal families have a budget for entertainment. The sum of money being slung at the media moguls is, in total, far greater than it was a few years ago. The proportion of CD spend versus other entertainment media tells us that the record companies are producing little to interest the guys'n'chicks with disposable income.
Electrohead, For years we music/Hifi, lovers. have been searching for the ultimate sound that excites and uplifts our music - so much that some of us get over passionate - it is a drug like smoking it is addictive - and yes for every addict there is probably thousand of business people out there to take advantage of this.
From the beginning of the recording medium advances in this technology has improved sound by leaps and bounds - and i for one wish it success, - as for being ripped off by over priced HIFI, well you can only blame the consumer's need for such high priced bits of kit - if there's a market there's a sale and a buck to be made.
Technology has not got there yet Hifi Nirvana is not reachable - as yet no mater how much we fork out - human ears will never be satisfied as soon as we think we have the ultimate sound you will always want more its part of being human - people should get to know their weaknesses and their limits - CD is flawed it is not the ultimate in sound reproduction - this is why we are all still tweaking and buying the next bit or bob that comes along?? Cheers ...Carl
CD is flawed it is not the ultimate in sound reproduction - this is why we are all still tweaking and buying the next bit or bob that comes along??
Carl - the biggest weakness in the search for Nirvana is, beyond any shadow of a doubt, loudspeakers and their interface with the room. This factor is probably a thousand times more complicit in the failure of a system to "deliver" than anything else.
Yes i could agree - but where do you draw a line, do you end up like Howard Hughes - overzealous in every thing you do !!!
These topics will no doubt still cause discussions for ions to come - like i said we have got to know our weaknesses and limits - or end up going mad - or worst SKINT!!!!!
Glad to hear that all had good time during cable test - sevenoaks sound room - hope not like the one down here in swansea wales cold walls, thin carpet, hard surfaces, one leather two seater settee??
sevenoaks sound room - hope not like the one down here in swansea wales cold walls, thin carpet, hard surfaces, one leather two seater settee??
hope pub was better?
Sadly, you are right about the room. 7oaks really ought to invest in a few cheap curtains around the walls of their room. It would make a world of difference.
The pub was better acoustically, at least round the back where there was soft furniture. Were it not for the football match that evening, which attracted a large number of rowdy punters, it would have been even better!
Swansea Audio excellence - their rooms are the bees knees sound in them is out of this world -and the staff are actually in to their sounds - and not just trying to make a buck.
"Bill....Sure, vinyl sales might be up and CD down, but I also hear that sales of Fords are down this year while Aston Martin's numbers are up."
I think given the choice most people would much rather be driving the Aston! ...It is appropriate and flattering however that you chose this particular comparison to illustrate the difference ....On the volume of sales, I probably have more optical media at home than you do(kidding, although I do have about 600, CDs being the minority), but I'm not the one banging on about the relevance of Red Book CD to today's Audio !...Kind regards, Bill.
Hello All,well this debate over analogue versus digital sounds a bit boring to me,i use them all C.D,D.A.T,Reel to Reel ,Turntable,DAB radio and FM radio,and i enjoy them all,i also dont drive a Ford or an Aston Martin,i drive my Chevrolet Blazer 6.2 Detroit diesel,which i have driven up and down hills, through rivers[with the snorkel extended ] and just about every inhospitable terrain you can imagine,and i have enjoyed every minute of it..........Take Care .........Dave....p.s ,whats a red book c.d.player?
The Red Book is the formal specification of the classic audio CD. It forms part of a group known collectively as the "Rainbow Books": Yellow Book (CD-ROM), Orange Book (CD-R/RW) etc. and four or five others that specify weird and wonderful variants we seldom see.
While it is very easy to disparage the Red Book CD as a musical carrier, I will make a prediction in which I have great confidence – that the final years of the 20th century and the first decade of this will be looked back upon as the golden age of audio, with the ready availability of linear PCM in a format that the punter could freely use as he wished.
We are heading into a world where data-reduced digital is becoming the norm, and I have to say that vinyl will remain a minority interest offered (at a high price) to a few rearward looking enthusiasts, hankering after a golden age that never was. The move to online music sales may bring the luxury of true PCM files (such as 96kHz, 24 bit) but my guess is that these will be premium products saddled with DRM. The MP3 stuff (or WMA or MP4 and its derivatives) will most probably remain unprotected due to consumer pressure but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest were the decent stuff to be protected, especially where the big media companies are involved. Such companies are likely to claim that the undiluted formats are their greatest asset, hence the use of technology to restrict their (illicit) distribution, at the same time frustrating the legitimate user.
Good old CDs at under a tenner may not seem so bad after all.
You must forgive me Pluto, I'm struggling to control my mirth after the "Golden Age" reference.
Just to restore balance to the proceedings I will relate an experiment conducted by Professor Jack Dinsdale of Dundee University in 1992 roughly heralding the start of the "Golden Age of Audio" when CD had truly gripped the masses and was at the peak of it's powers. By this time, anyone who so much as questioned the validity of Philips's claims was either labelled an eccentric or a lunatic such was the depth and persuasiveness of the Conditioning...
Apart from describing and analysing the characteristics, properties and distortions of the 2 media, it was also Professor Dinsdale's intention to Poll the public afterwards to ascertain which medium they actually preferred in light of each demonstration.
Professor Dinsdale's lectures and experiment took place at a number of venues, among them the Royal Institute in London, and the Edinburgh Science Festival.
Although I never knew of the Edinburgh venue until reading the newspaper reports in the aftermath, it was fascinating to observe a regular newspaper journalists "take" on the event. One reported in the preamble of the Review that in the Professor's presentation "Do Long Playing Records Sound Better Than CD ?" that a most unlikely piece of what the Public would view as "heresy" was about to unfold before their very eyes (or should I say ears)...
Being newspaper journalists (rather than Hifi Journalists with their Inter-dependent symbotic rapport with the Audio industry) they were also understandably keen to "dish the dirt" on whatever outcome ensued...
By now you probably want to know the outcomes of these confrontations were!! At the Royal Institute there was an audience of 450 people (similar to the other venues) and the resulting polls at each venue showed that an overwhelming majority of the Public preferred the sound of Vinyl over CD.
It was Professor Dinsdale's contention that the majority of the Public, by using cheap record players, were not realising the full potential of vinyl. Better, well optimised record players were not only easily capable of outshining more expensive CD players but investment in a slightly better Analogue Turntable coupled with retention of their vinyl Records, would have proved more economical than replacing an entire collection with CDs.
The journalists weren't finished there though...they did add that CDs had other uses - such as beer mats.
I was talking to an old chum the other night. A vinyl lover – swears by it. He said, "all you have to do is tune out the vinyl mush in your mind and the music sounds far better than CD".
I wonder what would happen if I added pure vinyl mush to a CD playback. Somewhere here I have a vinyl disc with a track of unmodulated groove for noise test purposes; a source of pure vinyl mush. I feel an experiment coming on. I wonder if vinyl fetishists would be fooled.
Hello all,C.Ds as beer mats.and frisbies,how about as clay pidgeons,was in Warrington to-day looking for a cartridge for my old Rock-SME series 5 but couldnt decide on which to go for,there was a bewildering choice,any suggestions,i listen to mainly rock but occassionally go for the classics,Bruckner,etc,so i,m looking for somthing with a deep soundstage...............Dave
Oh, behave yourself Pluto. There is no vinyl mush, it's a fallacy...except for a tiny amount on the run-in groove. Once the music starts, it disappears (and this on all of my records - which have never been cleaned in their lifetime, many of which have been played hundreds of times, in the open air, without a lid, free to gather dust. )
David...Nice turntable. Did you ever spill any of the oil from the Damping Well ?
A friend of mine recently bought the Contrapunkt B and recommends it highly. It depends on the effective mass of the SME V and whether that is a good match for a given cartridge compliance.
I'm currently using an 18 yr old (!) Linn Asaka which succeeded a previous Linn MC. I think the Klyde is next nearest but I'm more or less in the same position as yourself contemplating a purchase but possibly not Linn this time (although this one deserves an award !)
