Sorry Mike, do not understand your confusion, to Charles, yes the main thing IMO is to first establish if there is actually a difference to discuss, I think that for the most there is actually no audible differences and no discernible differences, and therefor no discussion.

May I be so boring as to restate the obvious, one class 'B' amp be it FET or bipolar will probably sound like another, a class 'D' amp has the possibility to be different, but similar to another, one small 'reflex box' will probably sound similar to another, a flat panel speaker has the possibility to be different.

Change the technology and at least you have a chance of changing the sound. 

Until we break away from this conventional thinking then we have no possible hope of hearing something different, we are not going to significantly change our experiences by tweaking a few insignificant bits around the edge, i.e. cables and connectors, no IMO we can only change the experience by changing the technology.

These changes are on the way, the complete digital solution, the class 'T' route, the Hi Def digital audio route etc. there are many, they all promise an improvement, whereas the cable vendors, the snake companies etc. really offer none, apart from extracting cash from your own insecurities. Exactly as insurance companies have done over the years.

In reply to a message way ago on the perceived beauty of vinyl analogue, may I remind you that many of these beautiful analogue recordings you regard so highly were actually mastered in the digital domain, therefore had all the constraints of digital sound before finally being cut to vinyl, note that many of the best vinyl recordings that came out at this time were all digitally mastered, with a digital system not unlike that used in CD system.

So it seems the only difference between digital and analogue is actually what you place on your turntable, and what you believe it to be.

Well so much for a university education !!! 

John... 

PS I have never had any faith in the higher education system, it has always propagated 'dyed in the wool' ideas, it has never encouraged 'freedom of thought' and it has rarely encouraged 'originality',I therefore see the claim of 'I studied it at unversity' as completely invalid, a non starter, a waste of space. If you want to make a point at lest base it on your own experiences, your own understanding, your own beliefs etc.

Right, here's a man who has a million to bet, he didn't get that though buying silly cables, this discussion has gone a few full circles now.

An offer from Dave Oliver to create a discussion at the show - no one offered the subjectivist point of view. James Randy offers one million dollars to anyone who can 'spot the difference', and no one comes forward, I argue the toss about the unscientific points and no one has any scientific points to make.

However there is a major industry out there, baseing its sales on unscientific (none) facts, a large proportion of the public buying into this unscientific nonsence, no wonder James Randy can offer the bet.

What did I read last week on this forum, an interesting demonstration with a stethoscope about how sound travels down a cable, well sorry to be pedantic adout this but what goes down an interconnect is electrical signals, not sound. So what has that to do with the price of bread???

The whole Hi Fi market and direction, to me is lost, back in the seventies, I was listening to Quad ESL's, Radford amplifier and Thorens turntable, now that was thirty five years ago.

At the Heathrow show I heard nothing better and 90% not as good, do we not go for improvements in the Hi Fi world.

IMO we are now technically able to do far more than then, we have the possibility to transform sound reproduction to a new and unbelievable high, so why is it not happening.

A quick answer to my own question, yes it is, but at the bottom consumer end, this is so much better that many cheap units are now audibly better than the 'esoteric' products of a few years ago.

A recent purchase of a CD/DVD player from Tesco at £15 was easily as good as a several hundred pound player from Sony some years earlier, a Tripath amp at some £50 was obviously  better than any valve amp I had ever heard, that includes Rogers, Leak, Radford and Quad.

Only last weekend I lent my Tripath amp to a mate, his background in broadcast audio, seriously good home system, Quad professional power amp etc. and what were the comments.

Very good, could listen for hours, completely nonfatiguing sound, I think better than the Quads

Now if I could find the equivalent in speakers then I would be 'getting there', may be I am, with the Podium http://www.podiumsound.co.uk flat panel design, these are different, not reflex, not boxes, so again a change of technology may offer a change of outcome.

John...

Hi folks

Yes Dave,

The reason it went 'cold' was that after you offered a discussion meeting at the show, no one came forward to present an alternative view, and no 'subjectivists' offered to participate.

Now in my objectivist way of thinking, that only goes to show that no one is willing to 'take the test' or 'prove their ability' to hear a difference.

I would of course participate in any such endeavour, as I am sure would Pluto, but with no other views or input a discussion would not be possible.

If nothing else, all this cable talk has proved only one thing, IMO there is nothing to discuss.

I realised many weeks ago, despite your requests for me to 'tone it down' that underneath you personally were taking a great interest in the direction.

So yes, organise a meeting, transport is no problem, drink and grub very welcome, so count me in.

John... 

Dave. would be happy to travel to London to take part,but i would be travelling from Birmingham would the travelling cost be to much?if not chalk me in.

Mick.

Unfortunately there's no way I can get there . I live a couple of hundred miles away and would have to take a flight.

A couple of suggestions about the test: there's no point including "naysayers" as they claim that they can't tell the difference between cables. Even if they DID hear a difference, they may simply choose to ignore it and you wouldn't be any the wiser.

The ones that claim to hear a difference should at least be able to spot when a changeover was made without the help of anything but their ears. There's no way that they can pretend and yet detect a significant proportion of the changeovers.

There should be two tests: a basic one where you test that people can detect that a different cable is in use, and a more sophisticated one where people can say which is the expensive cable and which is the cheap one. There should be only 2 cables used.

Lastly, why not call the James Randi people and get it set up properly? The rest of the evening can be social but I'm sure that the JREF would be happy to take care of the "serious" part (with your agreed protocol), thus saving you a job and potentially winning $1m to boot!

I would be happy to 'knock up' an ABX test computer system, however it would be a serious test, it would have to be conducted under controlled conditions such that the results were repeatable and valid, remember my background is in measurement, but I would be happy to do it.

The crucial question seems, would anyone join the meeting with any serious input over cable differences, and I think we've already had that answer.

Anyway make a date, get some subjectivists there, get Pluto there, and I'll be there.

If all else fails then it could be a very interesting social event.

John...

PS lets prove a point before we bring in James Randi, if we can prove anything at all, then someone is on their way to a million $.

Oh and yes get Russ along, if only to meet him!