Unfortunatley some people have more brain between their ears than others
That explains why some people's heads are bigger than others then......
Fred, yes to a certain point, but it's ones ears that recieve sound and our brains that interpret it, how can you prove that you and I (or anyone else for that matter) have exactly the same hearing, and evaluatuate what we hear in exactly the same way? - you cant - If people want to spend thousands on mains plugs and other cables in the belief that it improves their overall listening experience, then that's their choice, it's just that you and me woudn't.
Re advertising hype, what about all the all the other marketing/advertising hype that surrounds us every day e.g. "BMW the ultimate driving machine/experience" (or similar) well it certainly wasnt for me! At the end of the day a seller has a product and needs to sell it, and they will prey on our human senses to acheive this, whether the product is Hi-fi or breakfast cereal.
Our ears are nowhere near as sensitive, consistent or reliable as electronic testing.
I don't agree that this always the case. You can only measure what you are looking for. Sure, human hearing is not perfect either, but I know which one I would sooner rely on when it came to evaluating the effect of cables on sound that I was listening to. With the simplistic testing that goes on in the commercial world there is no way that one is able to measure all of the variables. Indeed I am quite sure that science doesn't even know what all of the variables are, and how they inter-react. You say that the egg came first with the same conviction of ancient man who believed that the world was flat. To the best of my knowledge all hi-fi companies design and build their proto-type bit of kit, be it an amp or a cable and then using the finest measuring instrument know to man, our senses, check and tweak the design before releasing it on the marketing department.
Our ears are nowhere near as sensitive, consistent or reliable as electronic testing.
"I don't agree that this always the case."
So if it sometimes is the case my point appears to be made.
"To the best of my knowledge all hi-fi companies design and build their proto-type bit of kit, be it an amp or a cable and then using the finest measuring instrument know to man, our senses, check and tweak the design before releasing it on the marketing department".
Well, true, but they have to design and electronically measure, let's say, an amplifier before they can get to the point when they can listen to it. Speaker leads are simple because capacitance and inductance is irrelevant at audio frequencies at such a low impedance. The most accurate speaker cable is therefore one that gets the closest to having no cable at all which will be the thickest wire you can lay your hands on or will fit in the binding posts. Just as some people like too much bass or treble you might prefer the sound of faked cables with added series inductance and parallel capacitance (like Isolda) and proclaim them to be the best, but as well as being hugely expensive they surely won't be the most accurate.
Watlsice, no wonder everybody calls me big head then, no seriously I really am only having a laugh, I hope you don't think I was directing my humour at you personally? as to people percieving sound differently to each other,I have to agree with you,I have high frequency hearing loss in my right ear, so obviously I would not percieve sound in the same way as someone with perfect hearing, so if you take a group of people around the age of sixty five there will be a wide range of hearing losses of various magnitude. Unfortunatly at the moment I have an infection in both ears and I can hardly ear a thing, so I would not be much use in the listening test .
All the best Mick.
Dave Olliver, read your reviews on some CD's in HFC and I think they were informative giving good idea of content and quality of music (would like more of the same).
Mick, you make an important point there, many of the established and reputable reviewers are of our age, and are basically 'deaf as a post', yet they are recommending equipment to the twenty-thirty year old's who probably have far better hearing. Have now concluded that this world is completely 'barking', a friend puts my car on E-Bay, with a buy now price of £995, well at close of auction it fetched £1310, excuse me, but how did that happen?
It is heart warming to see some common sense beginning to emerge on this site, maybe the 'subjectionists' are re-reading their bank balances, and the 'objectiouvnists' are enjoying the music, but I feel a basic shift in balance is showing though.
No worries I was having a laugh also (well I thought i t was amusing)
John,
I'm not deaf as a post ( for the record I'm 51 in December) but sometimes during conversations when there is lot of noise around me e.g. a crowded room, I can focus easier on the conversations going on around me better than the conversation with someone directly opposite - weird but true - mind you I noticed this when I was younger as well. As per my point earlier, we dont all hear exactly the same things, let alone how we interpret the sound received.
John, just as you thought you were safe! i'm back, well no not really, i've never been away just watching and taking in all the varied points of view, i needed to take a step back to analyse all the information.
I am also going through a busy period in my life buying property, and trying to renovate two at the same time , but the plus side is i will soon be moving into a new 24'x 14' listening room, that makes it all worth while.
I've come to the conclusion that both sides are right, but as in all things we all take up positions and try to defend our point of view even when we know there is some truth in the opposition argument , I think we all know measurements are an essential tool as are listening tests.
I also agree with you about class D amplification, it is definitely the most promising format for the future, also podium loudspeakers sounded pretty good to me also.
Back to the thorny issue of all things cable, i agree similarly constructed cables of similar type of any price will sound similar, so why pay fortunes for it , but some are different and they sound different ( better is up to the individual to decide ), the cost / improvement ratio is difficult to justify as you only have the manufacturers word for production costs.
mains cables as long as they are well constucted cannot in themselves make any difference to the sound as they are not in the chain, but any that reduce the transmission of rfi to the equipment by any means do improve the the performance of the equipments power supply which in turn improves its performance, although i would say better results can be had by adding a dedicated earth with a spike driven into the garden in a damp area makes a much larger improvement.
I would like to throw my name in the hat for the abx testing if Dave can organize the venue, and i am willing to supply a pair of nordost red dawn speaker cables if this will help as i believe they are sufficiently different for anyone to hear.
I hope we are all enjoying the music after all, surely thats the point of it all one way or another!
Watlsice, it's good that we can laugh at ourselves, (and each other?) Before I found out about my hearing loss I also had problems deciphering my conversation with someone in crowded rooms or pubs, I think you will probably find that you too have some hearing loss, also when I reached 52 my sight started to fail me, so had to have glasses for the first time in my life for reading I am now 65 (oh dear).
As a blanket answer to you all, I hit sixty this year, my hearing is now not as good as it was, I have done some tests and I think now only 12KHz max, however I do still enjoy music and can differentiate the difference between good and bad equipment, and cables etc. so I don't think I have completely 'lost the plot'.
Having just had a session with 'Patricia Barber' just superb, and that was after an hour of 'Pink Floyd', and all on my battery powered Tripath amp, all some seven Watts per channel, and all sounding stunning, am looking forward to moving into the 'flat above a shop' such that I can listen undisturbed all night long without any neighbours to worry about, thanks for all the replies.
Back to cables, I had occasion to pop into " Music Matters"(Edgbaston) on saturday last, while there I purchased a " Tacima cs929/bp" mains conditioner, " very well made", happy with my perchase I tried it out, absolutley no difference whatsoever to the sound that I had with my three quid one, but they are real nice people, so if you are ever near there pop in. Also listened to a ten grand Naim set up, superb.
I purchased one of these mains conditioners and I must say that at first I really could not hear any difference at all so it was consigned to audio-visual duty. However at a later date I borrowed back the mains conditioner to have another listen. There was definitely a clear and noticeable difference, (yes I would go as far as to say an all-round improvement) so much so that I went out an bought another one for my hifi (via Amazon as it was by far cheaper than anyone else at the time). As to relative value for money, I would say that you get best value from these when you need to purchase a mains distribution board anway, and so you get the extra benefit of mains conditioning for a relatively small premium. I would advise everyone who is thinking about buying one to see if you can take it home to try before you buy.
Prey tell, what benefit does a mains conditioner have, what is the 'all-round improvement', what was the 'clear and noticeable difference'.
Now what change did your mains waveform have, is it now a real 'zero harmonics' 50Hz, what was 'conditioned', what did this external and expensive box do that the equipment was so 'inept' in doing.
I firmly believe that a company capable of designing a CD player or a power amp have more than enough 'brain power' to understand the problems of mains power and how best to 'condition' it. How can any overpriced four way outlet block improve on that?
We have now come 'full circle', many months ago this thread started with a request for a good mains outlet block, at wich point I suggested a £4-50 job from Tesco.
I think that was six months ago, since then we have had the 'cable test' scenario, and that has not happened, whatever next. In the same short space of time my life has changed from 'electronics design guru' to property developer.
Well folks, I found absolutely no difference whatsoever, but I may add my left ear is still a little stopped up, due to the earlier infection. So there you go, I will have to wait until it clears, but having said that, my mains supply is very clean, there is also automatic cut outs on each mains fuse and also on the mains box, I am lucky I suppose, but I did find a remarkable difference when I buywired my speakers.
John, the Tacima mains lead was only £35 quid, but very heavily made, i do not mind spending £35 quid and not having any difference in sound, but I would if i had bought the £175 quid one.
Well the clear and noticeable differences were that there was more sparkle and sheen to high frequency response of my stereo. I wouldn't go as far as saying that I can now tell the difference between a 32" and 34" crash cymbal, but I think you get my drift. There was also an improvement in the stereo imaging. None of these things singularly would be worth changing for, but taken all together, I believe that the Tacima offers good value for money.As for the £4.50 mains blocks, they do a job and they do it well. I paid £30 including postage for my Tacima mains conditioner, so my point is if you are going to buy a 6 way mains block anyway, you are paying a small premium for something which in certain applications might be of benefit. There is no Wow! factor with this item, and I don't doubt that in many cases no improvement would be heared.
There is no Wow! factor with this item, and I don't doubt that in many cases no improvement would be heard.
Exactly my point, now if you had spent that on some room alterations, some acoustic treatment etc. now that, you would hear. And on every track listened to, IMO a better deal.
