Just bought the Tacima cs929/bp" mains conditioner, and for me their is an improvement in sound. Also the TV used to freeze and there was a sound skip when a light switch was used in the next room. Now that has gone.
Yer OK that could be cured with a 30p transient suppressor. But what has become of the great 'cable test', that has now been talked about for so many months that I have lost interest, and it appears have everyone else.
Dave some answers here, will it happen, when, and what is the point.
IMO no one is really interested, they appear to prefer to stick to their preconceptions rather than open the mind to some truths.
Now only this afternoon I was listening to some 'call waiting' music on the phone, I found it emotionally engaging, this led me to believe that music and emotion have very little to do with Hi Fi quality. But all the sales pitch is to do with emotion, just an observation.
Well it seems the first venue for the test has fallen through. I'm talking to a couple of parties about sorting out another one though - I'll keep you posted, hopefully very soon.
Hi Dave, it appears to have taken me 8 days to reply, so maybe I am joining in the complete apathy of this 'cable test'. The truth is no one wants a cable test, no one is interested in the truth, no they prefer to stick to their beliefs, right or wrong, a lot easier to stick to than 'open the mind' to the truth.
One reason that I bleated on about 911 is that there had to be a rational explanation, I believe after many months of searching I found that explanation, but it was not the official story. In the similar way I have studied all the cable claims and come to the same conclusion. Since being on this site I have studied many other aspects of life and found many of them not to be true.
Truths are difficult to find, but like so many things, practice makes perfect, the understanding of 911 gave me a great incite as to the workings of human psychology, and that opened the door to the possibility of some serious 'cable' scams, in turn that has opened the door to many other scams in life, and they are everywhere, but with an open mind, and some inner knowledge hopefully I can avoid them.
So Dave answer me this, what do you expect to achieve by the 'cable test'
IMO if it is not a true ABX test then nothing can be concluded.
If it is a random, this that and the other, then nothing can be concluded.
That only leaves the 'lets have a go' a 'good jolly' a bit of fun, but no conclusion.
So please tell me, what outcome do you expect, what do you want, what would make the effort worthwhile?
Well it would be an ABX test and there would be a conclusion. I can't say that it would be definitive, since I'm sure taht there would be other people not present who would take issue with our findings (as always happens). Within the confines of this forum however, I had hoped to bring some of the more vociferous members together who could all go through exactly the same test experience - this would then inform the debate better than what's been happening ie 'well I tried this...' 'but you didn't try that...' etc.
I know you like your absolutes John, but I'm afraid I can't promise you any. This test will however be conducted properly and I hope it will move the debate on this forum forward. It will be more than a 'jolly', though I would also expect it to be entertaining.
Dave - some weeks ago, ISTR, you declined John's offer to manufacture a suitable ABX test rig in favour of....well I'm not sure what.
In the meantime I have taken the opportunity to study some of the beliefs, habits and practices of the so-called audiophile community and I have to say that I now feel that the term "audiophile" (literally, one who loves audio) has become little more than a laughing stock. Twenty years ago I would happily have described myself as an audiophile but it appears that those who now subscribe to the term have been seduced by the total hogwash that the best brains in the marketing profession wish to purvey. The most dangerous of all these beliefs is the most simple - that the higher the spend, the closer you will get to audiophile heaven. This is in spite of the fact that some of the most expensive stuff is based on the oldest technology. While there is nothing wrong with old technology per se, when combined with a paranoia that new technology is bad, there are an awful lot of seriously deluded individuals out there wallowing in their own prejudice.
Whenever an individual who appears to contradict the perceived wisdom espoused on these forums sticks his head above the parapet he is greeted, not with reasoned argument but derision, insults, accusations of hearing problems and that most common of all audiophile cop-outs, "your system isn't of sufficient resolution". The criteria by which these folks evaluate equipment and things beggars belief. Any kind of real-time comparison is eschewed in favour of long term 'evaluation' which completely ignores that fact that, given time, the human ear will get used, more or less, to anything (which is the basis of the great burn-in lie).
It saddens me that this science, whose purpose is to maximise the enjoyment of music and the spoken word in people's homes, has become corrupted by a return to the values and prejudices of the age of darkness; the moden online equivalent of non-conformists being pilloried and, if opportunity and the law permitted, burned at the stake for daring to suggest that an integrated circuit isn't inherently evil.
Pluto please correct me if i am wrong , but it almost seems you relish the thought of the whole hifi industry collapsing, and "audiophiles reverting back 50 years to a time when you had to make your own if you had the skill, and people described the more expensive equipment as having a nice "tone".
You will be pleased to know i think your wish will come true within 20 years, as younger people have little or no interest in high quallity music or equipment to play it on .
Yes, i agree the there is an awful lot of snobbery amongst so called audiophiles, and alot of very expensive equipment that sounds awful, i have heard systems costing in excess of £ 200,000 that reproduce nothing that sounds anything like real music .
I would describe myself as a music lover first and foremost , for me hifi equipment is just a means to an end , all my puchases whatever the price have been an attempt to re-create what i hear at a live musical event in my home ,and yes i have spent alot of money but i have pretty much achieved what i wanted to do. Does that make me an audiophile ? i'm not sure , all i know is everybody who has listened to music reproduced on my equipment has been shocked that it is even possible, some so much they are moved literally to tears of joy as have i .
Please do not take anything i have said as a criticism , i have alot of respect for you and your point of view it just seems to some people to be a little extreme.
PS. i have nothing against new technology , only bad technology.
Wow a new and refreshing discussion. To Pluto, yes having designed the ABX comparison system I did find the decision not to use it disappointing, as to the concept of 'put a few transistors on one chip' and that degrades performance - complete nonsense, as for talk of 'your system does not have the 'resoution' again complete nonsense. Yes music reproduction is a science, it is 'down to numbers' and that appears to be what the great 'audiofiles' miss. In reality all successes and achievements are down to numbers, probabilities and realities.
To electrohead, I understand where you come from, and you state 'audiophiles reverting back 50 years to a time when you had to make your own if you had the skill' , well that is exactly what is on offer at the 'extreme top end'. At the Hi Fi show last year almost all of the gear on show was exactly that, 50 year old technology, and it was being touted as the 'latest and greatest', so maybe the industry is already poised for it's own collapse.
I don't for one moment think young people have 'no interest' in Hi Fi, I just believe that they hear so little of it that they don't know how good it can be, after all with the pier pressure on MP3 players though 2" speakers they hardly have a 'frame of referance' for Hi Fi, if you've never heard it 'it probably does not exist.
IMO MP3 and other compressions are 'bad technolagy', developed only to make storage more affordable, make a product more appealing etc. But never to make the result better.
I have seen young people here, and after only minutes they exclaim that they have never heard anything like it, so they do appreciate the difference, just did not know that it was possible, let alone on a £2K budget.
"It saddens me that this science, whose purpose is to maximise the enjoyment of music and the spoken word in people's homes, has become corrupted by a return to the values and prejudices of the age of darkness"
"It saddens me that this science, whose purpose is to maximise the enjoyment of music and the spoken word in people's homes, has become corrupted by a return to the values and prejudices of the age of darkness"
Pluto please correct me if i am wrong , but it almost seems you relish the thought of the whole hifi industry collapsing, and "audiophiles reverting back 50 years to a time when you had to make your own if you had the skill
Electro - I certainly do not relish the thought of the industry, at large, collapsing. There's no way I could make my own gear if life itself depended on it! My interest in this business has only recently become revived, out of little more than curiosity, after 15 or more years just sitting listening, oblivious to whatever the hi-fi biz had to offer. I was hoping for something better than I found. What did I find? An "industry" [industry, no - not really] that appears to have become morally corrupt, self-serving and no longer true to itself. Imagine a bizarre fantasy scene where the marketing men are allowed to get anything they imagine. They start dreaming. They dream of cars turning to dust the day after the warranty expires. They dream of insurance deals that never have to pay out. They dream of a world in which it becomes mandatory to buy whatever they say. And they dream of a world in which they sell a length of copper wire for $20k. And then everybody wakes up. Now you know how you sometimes remember the last thing you dreamt before awakening - well, that's what's happened.
Some very clever marketing directed at a group of anoraks in search of perfection, and what we get is an industry that has lost all sense of proportion. Technology is derived largely from mathematics. Audio reproduction is derived from technology - yet we have an industry and its camp followers who deny the maths to which they owe their existence, in favour of a semi-mystical belief in a cult that appears completely unwilling to separate the things that matter from cloud cuckoo land. They latch onto small technological snippets and distort them without the benefit of understanding. The industry appears to have lost the will to develop products at reasonable prices, claiming that mystical perfection does not come cheap. Money talks, so an entire 'support structure' contributes to the perpetuation of the mystic. I have seen perfectly good equipment condemned as "not of audiophile quality" for the daftest of reasons. Common sense has gone out of the window, as has any desire by most of the industry to offer equipment of the highest quality, but good value for money.
your point of view...just seems to some people to be a little extreme.
I say that expensive cables are a waste of money, that the highest quality audio electronics can be manufactured for a reasonable price, that expensive mains processors contribute little if anything, that a mains lead has no effect on the sound of a system (unless there are other serious problems).
Above all, that many so-called audiophiles, without realising it, are being rogered up the arse by a few companies who are laughing all the way to the bank. This view you describe as "a little extreme"?
Don't get me wrong. I support anybody's right to buy a Rolex, only don't try to kid me that it keeps better time than my £20 electronic Casio.
I must agree with most of what you say, there is a lot pf overpriced mediocre equipment out there, but that is true of most things today, all i can do is use my ears and common sense to choose the products that sound the best to me and appear to make a worthwhile improvement.
The products on your link are very interesting , if they sound as good as they look and the spec suggests, they are amazing value for money and will be a kick in the pants for a lot of other manufacturers, the only problem i would have is not being able to listen carefully to them first.
If more manufacturers like this appear there may be hope for the hifi industry after all !
John and Pluto , I don't understand the contempt the word " RESOLUTION " seems to conjure, please explain!
Sorry guys but I am firmly in the maths camp here, such technologies as the CD, DVD, DVI, HDMI, HDCD, Blueray etc. were not dreamt up by procrastination in a pub, or listening to the latest vinyl renditions, no but by rigorous study of requirements, possibilities etc. Of all the hi tech. companies who bring us the media players, amps and speakers they for the most part don't even recommend cables, let alone sell them.
Now in reference to Pluto's input this company and its offerings? What are they really offering, IMO a totally over-engineered product for an over-the-top price.
Who ever can use that sort of power in a domestic environment - I hear the words, but transient peaks etc. NOT true, in a 16bit recording the transient peaks are known, never more than 30dB above normal, with good speakers in a large room this represents about 25WPC. Considering I have brought my neighbours to breaking point with the mini Tripath amp at less than 10WPC, how could I use more.
They make a point of stating 'built on fibreglass PCB, yer everything in the world is built on fibreglass PCB.
They make a point of the use of Toshiba transistors, so what, these are standard bipolar transistors and that makes the design a standard AB power amp, just like the other 90% out there. IMO to create something new we need a new design, Dyson did it with vacuum cleaners, Tripath have done it with power amps, no one has done it with cables - despite all the claims.
Please can anyone explain to me what they hear with a £50,000 system that cannot be heard on a £5000 system, the differences are only cosmetic, just like the Rolex comparison and the jewelry discussion.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not knocking such decisions but be real they are not to do with 'audio quality'.
Now after many months of agonising heartbreak, my bathroom is now nearly complete, it is only a bathroom, and functions like any other - but I decided to make it a fashion statement - that upped the price by ten times, but in reality it is only a loo, shower and sink.
I'm not going to try and kid you that I am cleaner for it, no it is just a fashion statement, in the same vein don't try and kid me that £10000 cables improve your sound, same reasoning.
Now in reference to Pluto's input this company and its offerings? What are they really offering, IMO a totally over-engineered product for an over-the-top price.
The product that particularly caught my eye was this one given my impending need for six channels of power amp with balanced inputs. The fully modular construction is a bonus (with, in my case, a spare seventh module) with the same unit having a great deal of potential should I decide to abandon the current esoteric route I am exploring in favour of a good old fashioned home theatre setup. Nobody on the Emotiva web site or anywhere else is claiming anything truly innovative about these units. Simply, great value for money for what appears to be competently engineered equipment. No audiophile doublespeak.
You obviously didn't notice that this is a class H design (that's the one where the supply rails are adjusted for maximum efficiency, I think). The bugger does weigh 115lbs though, so I really don't know if shipping to the UK would be viable.
But at the quoted price it seems hard to argue with the value for money.
I don't understand the contempt the word " RESOLUTION " seems to conjure, please explain!
The problem is that analogue die hards like to run the argument that the "resolution" of an analogue device is infinite. It is not, the resolution is limited by noise. Unlike a digital device whose resolution is limited by errr...noise.
The difference with analogue technologies is that they tend to produce their own noise which we live with, while digital systems need to have a controlled amount of noise added at certain points in the process, called dither.
Another universal truth is that once a signal is infiltrated by noise, you are stuck with it. Many digital recordings (particularly classical music) are in fact adequately dithered by the unavoidable noise picked up by the microphones at the recording - often this noise level is vastly higher than that required to correctly dither the bit-depth in question.
I love it, here we are seeing some real 'engineering' input, now the discussion is getting based on facts. I notice that the cable heads appear to have little to say. I do firmly believe this is what the industry would hate most.
Lets face it a whole industry has for many years based it's profits on the insecurities of the uneducated populace, now they would be horrified at the truth becoming mainstream.
That is what I and many others hope and expect this site to offer, and we will, by scientific input, by 'real world' stories and by analysis of the truth. The truth is not difficult to find, however is does require one to distance oneself from the media and to look for yourself. This may be difficult at first sight but after you pick up on one tinny bit of truth, then more becomes reasonable, my understanding of a major government decision was difficult to grasp, but once realised other truths became easier to understand, I now understand truths like they were 'second nature', immediate and with no need for discussion.
What I am talking about here is not a discussion over X or Y product, no who is actually being honest in their offerings, when you consider that a major government can have a whole country over a scam that was not true then what could a 'cable company' have over you?
The possibilities are endless, but it does happen. Marketing is a wonderful thing, done correctly it can sell a totally worthless item for many pounds, that is what marketing is all about, selling something for far more than it is worth. I have done it, I realise just how easy it is and that is what the 'cable hype' is all about.
But open your mind to that fact and you are immediately conscious of the fact, and therefore able to spot it before you are conned.
So to sum up:
Hi Fi reproduction is a science.
All results can be measured, if not they are probably not a change.
Most cable claims are exactly that, only claims, not measurable, not provable and not repeatable.
If any advances in cable technology were true then the telecoms industry would be most interested, but they are not.
If a change in cable is more significant than a change in 'amplifier topology' then that should be known and talked about.
If cables were regarded as so significant then why do no major makers or Hi Fi equipment either recommend them or offer them!
If a cable of 79 strands or another of 23 strands of the same copper with the same resistance can sound different, then maybe the difference could be achieved by closing the door in your listening room, or by closing the curtains, get real guys these actions have far more effect on the sound than changing a cable!
The acoustics of ones room have far more effect than even a change of speaker cable, and that has far more effect than changing an interconnect, and those are a thousand more times more likely to be heard than a 'mains conditioner', so lets get it all in persective.
though, so I really don't know if shipping to the UK would be viable.
