"but surely enjoying music and hifi is about more than just science".

 Music is an art but the reproduction of it through a hifi is a science. The laws of physics are not negotiable. Idiots like those in the panel in W*** hifi  suggesting that it's a good idea to pay hundreds of pounds on dressed up pieces of wire (astonishingly, even mains cables) are gradually devaluing the industry by assisting the deception of dishonest companies  that market quackery based on the mug's eyeful / placebo effect. We need independent well publicised ABX testing to counteract this nonsense because the public are being deceived en masse. 

Fred, extremely well put and i would imagine most people would agree with what you say

Wotlsice, i also would agree with you that we want to listen to music and enjoy it, but we must get away from these outrageously ridiculous claims. Also i have noticed on these sites, nobody discusses music or what they listen to,(strange).

Mick.

To Fred and Mike, after months of discussing these point I am finally finding 'like minded' people, you can't believe how refreshing that is for me. As someone in electronics design, I always believed in the basics, but almost never in the Hi Fi circles did I find any agreement.

Thanks to all who propagate the 'nonsence' of cables for what they are, a major, deceitful, undesirable con that it really is.

John... 

I'm currently posting on the W*** forums and have been banned just for telling the truth. Maybe you would care to join their ship of fools forum and help fight the good fight.

http://whathifi.com/forums/p/3794/20269.aspx

I have followed, and contributed to this thread, for a long time now. I have heard al the arguments ,suppositions and theories abouy wheter or not cables make any discerniblr difference to the sound of a system. I was at a demo given by Nordost not long ago. They used middle of the range Primare equipment. Pre-power, cd player and speakers which I can't remember the make of now. But they were floorstanders of modest cost. The demo began by using the entry level interconnects and progressed through the range to the top of the line models. I was struck by how irreverently the interconnects were treated when not in use. They were simply laid on the floor. No voodoo or semi-religious atitude to speak off. The same piece of music was used throughout at the same volume. Each time the interconnects were "upgraded" there seemed to be a slight improvement all round. You all know the popular hi-fi jargon, so I shall not bore you with that now. The real revelation came when having played the music using the top of the range interconnects they reverted to the entry level ones the demo began with. It was like listening through closed doors. I am as suspicious and sceptical as the next person, and more then most, of all the semi-scientific claims made by cable manufacturers. However, I cannot deny the difference was astonishing and the entry level cables seemed good at the start! Argue all you like but I was in that room and I know what I heard. If you can get that kind of quality from a piece of cable that costs very little I am very pleased for you. However, I firmly believe that quality cables, interconnects and mains leads contribute a considerable amount to the pleasure you derive fron your music or movies and those who think they can do it for pennies are deluding themselves.

Paul. 

Fred, John, Paul, Well i am probably one of the most cynical old farts on the face of this planet, but a funny thing happened to me on the way to the theatre today i popped into music matters in edgbaston and bought myself another set of speaker cables to by-wire my speakers,the reason being i was not particularly over the moon with the sound i was getting,but blimey what a difference it has made to the sound, at least 35 to 50%,i know this sounds crazy but it has! the speaker cables are Chord co odyssey,would you believe it!

Mick.

I replaced my speaker cables some time ago and I agree in that particular case it can make a huge difference to the sound. The difference with my greatly improved listening experience was that it was simple and cheap. I replaced the single run of 79 strand with 4 paralled lengths of the same 79 strand per speaker thus reducing the series impedance of the cable to very low levels. I initially biwired them but I found that putting the links back improved the sound slightly. Since then I've moved house and now my speaker leads are very short (about 2 metres) which has improved the sound once again.

Although cynical I have tried a pair of expensive interconnects (Chord, borrowed from a true cable believer friend) between my CD player but I couldn't hear a difference. Ironically, when I tested him he couldn't seem to tell either but he said it was probably because my gear wasn't as good as his. Hmmm. If a cheap interconnect has the same electrical characteristics as an expensive one then it will sound the same. How could it possibly sound different? I have to say I'm more than a little sceptical about the honesty of the Nordost demo. It wouldn't be too difficult to sneak up the volume very slightly between wires to ensure that an "improvement" is heard.

As for mains leads, well that's just mad. They're not even in the signal path. If I can vary the mains by 30 volts on my amp using a variac without hearing a difference how on earth could changing the mains lead do anything?

Yea right, if you change a speaker cable from basically 'bell wire' to a seriously thick cable, then of course you will hear a difference, if you change your interconnects from some 'loose fitting' phono connectors to some that actually make a connection then of course you will here a difference, if your mains cables are so stupidly underspecified, that you loose thirty plus volts, then of course you will hear a difference.

But if you were to connect your system up with 'sensible' cables, if all your plugs connected properly then I wonder what subtle differences you could hear.

Trust me with most modern equipment using switched mode power supplies, requiring an input of between 85-250 Volts the mains lead will have no bearing.

So we can negate the mains leads, we can ensure that the 'phono' leads/interconnects make proper contact, and we ensure that the speaker leads are of a decent cross sectional area (CSA) then what else is there to do. If ones follows these guidelines then  any other route to 'Nivanda' must be by equipment upgrades and nothing else.

In my humble opinion, having listened to many systems, I would say the 'weakest link' is still always the speakers.

This is only my opinion, but as I have never heard a system better than my own, many close, but never better, at an exhibition, or at a show, or at any price, no never heard anything as good. so I don't have a lot to go on.

My biggest problem is 'neibours' i.e. the people up and down stairs, above and below,  but I think I've got that sussed now with the purchase of a DETACHED one bed property, so maybe Hi Fi nirvana is now in my grasp.

John...

PS trust me sound is a PASSION beyond life it'self. 

Pluto: thanks for the advise but I'll post what I see fit. I've read the arcticle fyi.

Richard: well put.

 Pluto & Fred,: how do you guys audition components then just by reading the  technical spec?

Hi Folks, doubt all you want but the Nordost demo was very straight forward and "honest".

The equipment was not touched, only to change the cables at the rear. The rack was in the middle of the room with no chance for deception. In fact little was made of the equipment at all. The point they were making was that you would be better spending your money upgrading the wiring loom rather then the equipment itself. I have no hidden agenda about any make of cable but I cannot deny what I heard. Sometimes we may have to face the awful truth that not everyone is out to cheat us out of our money and some products are worth the asking price.

Paul.

Paul, i am not against people spending money on cables,(within reason) but when we are talking about many thousands of pounds, i just do not see the need nor desire.

Fred John, as i have said my speaker cables are chord - co odyssey, not that expensive. so i have matched them up with another pair, i paid £65. for the second pair including Milty banana plugs. the lengths each side are 2Mt's, the difference is amazing the sound stage is deeper and wider and separation is remarkable.No wonder i was not happy with it before, i'm dead chuffed!

Mick.

Hi Mick, I am pleased you are reaping the beifits of your cable changes. I agree that there is a limit to how much anyone spends on cables and such. However, some might think that £65 for any sort of cable is exhorbitant. I do not and think you have gotten excellent value.

Paul.

Well I bought a Chord mains cable for my Croft Pre and I could hear a marked difference and improvement. I even got my wife in and she could hear a difference.

I then went on to try interconnects from Vdh, Chord Signature and Transparent and heard enough difference to buy the Vdh First. It was the cheapest and the Chord was slightly better but not double the price better!

Cables do make a difference sound wise but we don't like to pay the high prices. It is also a field where what you pay doesn't equate to what you get! My speaker cable is 70p/m  4mm twin and earth and it sounds clearly better than the £11/m Vdh cable I had before.

If you find a good dealer you can listen and then decide. You may find it interesting, I did.

Slawts

wotlsice said,

thanks for the advise but I'll post what I see fit. I've read the arcticle fyi.

The comment wasn't actually aimed at you, but your somewhat acerbic comment clearly suggests something. It seems rather odd to me that so-called audiophiles react so testily when asked to read something written by a bloke with so much experience designing top quality amplifiers.

What did you actually think of the article?

"The point they were making was that you would be better spending your money upgrading the wiring loom rather then the equipment itself."

Who supplied all the lesser cables used in the test? 

 Think about it. 

What is there in Nordost cables that can possibly cost so much? The answer is nothing. Lets be generous and say the £750 ones are made for £30.

 Nice profit. But nobody would buy them. Or would they....

Richard O 6 said,

"but surely enjoying music and hifi is about more than just science"

Please don't confuse enjoyment of music with accurate reproduction. The two are fundamentally unrelated. I have experienced some of my greatest musical enjoyment in the car, when the mood, the company and the time were "just right"; the quality of the sound had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Accurate reproduction is entirely about science, and by trying to disguise that fundamental precept, for commercial reasons, this crazy industry has gone off the rails.

I understand what you're saying and i agree there is obviously an important distinction between to two terms. 

The point i was trying to make is what is more important. 

 Personally, i think enjoyment is far more important than accuracy.

"Pluto & Fred,: how do you guys audition components then just by reading the  technical spec?"

 No, I would still audition components. The difference is I don't waste my time listening to things that can't affect the sound.

"Personally, i think enjoyment is far more important than accuracy."

What if accuracy affects enjoyment? If you spend hundreds on leads you want and need to hear an improvement, real or not.

Pluto.

As I have posted a thread on this forum then your statement did apply to me so my response was written on that basis. As for acerbic, then you are wrong here, this is just a reasonable POV. 

Anyway my initial thoughts on the article are that it is factual and logical but technically way over my head, after all, I gave up physics in the 3rd year .....

Nevertheless the article represents the author's learned opinion which I respect, so he/you must then respect mine, after all,  neither of you were present at my subjective listening test but you dont seem to want to accept my analysis (so who is reacting testily?)  but I must accept yours. This just  proves that we dont entirely agree on the issue - fair enough? 

I'll give the article another read soon.

Anyway, I look forward to the blind listening test assuming Dave can sort out the location.