I've just caught up with this thread - I suppose I'm on the fence on this subject but I cant see how anyone needs to spend hundreds of pounts on a pair of interconnects to obtain an "improved sound" althought my non-scientific brain tells me that there must be some sort of a minimum cable / connector specification that does make an audible imrovement when compared to say Maplins standard offering? but what this spec is and what the cost is, I've no idea.
So a blind listening test makes sense to me on the asssumption that the approach to and the objectives of the test have been agreed.
If there are any spare places left I'll bring my ears and an open mind (but no science)
Having read reviews for and purchased many of the hi fi seperates and cables - only to find that the said review and the product stated did not live up to the high standard that i was expecting or stated in the reviews.
In a nutshell Dont believe all that you read or are told.
Manufacturers that give their products for review always hand the reviewer the product that has the best componants and tweaked up to the best possible standerd they can - and then leave us paying for sub standard production models.
I think that all test and reviews should be conducted on - off the shelf production models - THERE ive said it - and yes they will deny it WONT THEY.
Oh my god, you have an attitude problem, yes I agree that, review and the product stated did not live up to the high standard that i was expecting or stated in the reviews.
And I agree with In a nutshell Dont believe all that you read or are told.
Exactly what I have been trying to say for many months,
As for your next statement I don't think it's trure, no company puts out 'top standard, version models' and then 'downsized' them for production, no I don't beleive that for one moment. I'm sue that any model put up for demo is a standard production model
Of course they will deny it as THEY DONT DO IT, wake up man the world is not full of 'sleesebags' it is not full of 'sharletans', yes theie are a few out there but for the most part they are honest citizens.
We all read in the papers how say the letting process may find tenants that 'rip you off' but look at the numbers, look at the PROBABILITY, in reality it is something like 2% so is that a worry.
To me the very essence of life is only 'probabilities', there are no real numbers out there, no there are only PROBABILITIES, nothing in life is 'cut and dried' no, everything is a chance, a probability, a possibility, a chance or even a choice. Make one choice and it will lead to another, that could lead to another etc.
Sorry to be so philosophic on this, but that is the way i am.
Sorry john i seem to have hit a nerve i was quite calm writing my veiws but my piont was quit clear. why--( reveiwed products should taken off the shelf and not recieved from the manafacturers ). perhaps then we would all get the qaulity products that we read in reviews would you not agree.
Sorry folks, but we've just hit a problem with the cable test. Cambridge Audio have just told me that they've had to move some prescheduled building work forward, which means their listening room won't be available on the day we arranged. I'll try to find an alternative venue for the same day, but if not, it looks like we may have to postpone for a few weeks (they can't tell me yet exactly when the listening room will be available again).
Thanks for all your input so far - hopefully we can get this sorted out soon.
Discussion interconnects, do they or don't they: WhatHI-FIsay in their reviews, eg. Chord co chorus 2. Brilliantly detailed and rhythmic. Boasts speed, punch and dynamism in spades.price £250.Chord co, crimson, superb all rounder that will suit any sub - £1000 system price £38. Chord co indigo, sensational high end(10k minimum) system upgrade, trust us its worth it.price £925. What Hi-Fi say of themselves Quote, every verdict is that of the magazine,not of an advertiser or press officer.When we say somethings good, it is. (unquote). Well lads and lassies there you go no need for a cable test after all, is there.
qaulity products that we read in reviews would you not agree,
No I would not agree, no one is out there to 'rip you off', no company would go to the trouble of making a 'special' for review purposes only.
As you are mainly talking about cables, and to my mind they are practically all the same, then what could be changed?
Remember that from measurements even a £1.50 nickel interconnect measures perfectly, so from that point on all cables do the job. Everything else is in your imagination, as are any ideas that they may change the spec. between a review sample and what is on the shelf, that is also in your imagination. As indeed is the fact that you can hear any differences at all.
Trust me, as an engineer, interconnects are just NOT IMPORTANT, they CANNOT make any difference, they do not make any difference, they are a marketing hype, end of story.
If you want any real change then try a technology change, ask anyone who has listened to a class 'A' amp, anyone who has listened to Quad electrostatics, they will tell you of the significant differences.
Listen to a good class 'D' design, then tell me you cannot hear the difference, as no one yet has heard the Tripath and not immediately picked up on a difference. A difference so stunning and so significant that the director of a major 'speaker company' offered to buy said amp there and then, now that is a difference.
Others have just said 'this is beutiful', and 'I have never heard anything so good in my life', and all with cheap nickle connectors.
I have been at the 'sharp end' of recording engineers, and film sound engineers, the very people who record the sounds that you will eventually hear, they take no notice of all the cable hype, I have visited broadcast studios and they take no notice of all the cable hype.
So do you know something that the whole professional industry does not know?
Please let me know, then I can pass it down the chain and significantly improve the 'sonics' of recording and of the broadcast/recorded sound.
Your right there is no need for a cable test, as there is nothing to test, there is nothing to hear, there is nothing to debate, so why wast the time.
John, i just included those quotes to illustrate what these hi fi magazines say about various cables ,how can they hear all this sonic ingenuity, i certainly can't, where do they get all these expressions speed punch dynamism,i give up.
<<Manufacturers that give their products for review always hand the reviewer the product that has the best componants and tweaked up to the best possible standerd they can>>
I've been reviewing hi-fi for various publications (including this one, AVR, the odd time - hello Dave!) and can honestly say I've never seen any indication that a product has been _in any way_ tampered with for review. How do I know? Because for a start I pull the covers off _everything_ I review as a matter of course. I've worked in electronics for a living and know what to look for. I've fixed hi-fi for loads of folks and the stuff they bring me (bought retail, of course) is exactly like the stuff I get to review. Sensible manufacturers may run an extra confidence test on review samples, just to make doubly sure they're not sending a dud (as apart from anything else there may simply not be time to replace it before copy deadlines): of course the odd unit does fail on test or due to transit damage. But modified? No.
Hi Richard, although I did not know what I was saying earlier, I just thought it unlikely, nice to have the confirmation.
I personally do not believe everyone in life to be a 'sleasebag' or a 'cheat' and I never believed any companies to be in that category. However the buying public seem so convinced of their preconceptions that there is little room for 'truth'.
Truth is what I crave for, weather it be company specs. or cable specs, or even 'government lies' they are all truths, during the last year I seem to have uncovered many, some so unbelievable that they made me cry, some so unbelievable that they made me laugh
Some as major as the American government, some as insignificant as cable differences, but they are all truths.
There are many lies out there, unfortunately, we as the general public have no knowledge of what 'is' a complete lie, a scam, or a fraud.
It is up to us individually to asses every issue. Difficult as it may seem, once we align ourselves with the truth, then the scams appear to stand out as obvious lies. However It does take practice, and patience.
To Dave, in the next few months I may take possession of a huge one bedroom house in Barnet, that could be ideal for cable tests or any other tests, no neighbours, behind shops etc. an ideal opportunity to experiment with Hi Fi.
So far I have only made an offer, it has been accepted, but we have not exchanged yet, so give it time, it will happen.
This is my purchase of a lifetime, a detached house, a music lovers dream. Right in the town centre of Barnet, with off street parking, but I'm sorry only for one, anyone else will have to visit the public car park at some 60p an hour, and a two minute walk. However it is only five minutes walk from High Barnet underground station, so probably not worth using the car.
As you may gather property investment has become a major issue in my life since I started writing on this forum, and it has now become so interesting that it has rather dampened my interest in Hi Fi, but not to zero. I still have the interest, I still desire the truth, and I still want to 'get there'
My listening test was somewhat abruptly ended as my mate has now got his Chord Red and wanted his Avid interconnects back... Anyway here goes ....
Equipment used was Quad CDP2 into a QUAD 909 (power amp) into Quad 989s. The mains plugs were all standard (including those on the 989s) the only exception being that the 909 which used a Merlin Black Widow mains cable plus a £40 Tacima mains filter was used to connect the equipment to the mains. Room size is 24ft by14ft but I sit about 5 yards from the 989s which were 4ft from the back walls and angled in a tad.
The interconnects used were the Avid Blacks and a pair of old very cheap retail purchased (Comet or similar) interconnects that I found on the back of my old Rogers A75 amp (which I havent used for years). I also intended to include a pair of "straight-thru" inconnects purchased off ebay for further comparison but time ran out.
CDs listened to were "The Healing Game" by Van Morrison (highly recommended) and a Paul Simon Anthology double album plus a couple of Eva Cassidy "Live at Blues Alley" tracks. Unfortunately I didnt have time for classical or rock.
Was there a difference? well to my ears - yes - although it was not massive and I doubt if Mr Average will even hear it (in that case dont buy £750 Avids Mr Average)
Basically the Avids separated out individual instruements and voices better, this made the overal sound more defined and more real, this was especially evident on backing vocals and brass arrangements (ref Van Morrison). Lead Vocals definately had a more emotional content whereas the cheap cables could not convey this to the same extent plus they sounded slightly more grainy and this was particlarly evident at higher volume levels.
Other things I noticed with the AVIDs were bass roll off especially on tTom toms i.e. they weren't as boomy or the bass overhang was reduced. Also Van Morrisons harmonica just sounded better ie. it had a real presence to the sound whereas the cheaper cables made it sound thin and a tad annoying. this presence was also evident in the brass presentation and vocals (as explained earlier).
I suppose to summarise, the Avids were more satisfying to listen to and to my ears added a realism that the cheap cables didnt, however, this difference was SMALL but significantIMO.
The issue to me now is are the Avids worth £750? or is there a cheaper cable that can do the same for less?
I appreciate this wasnt a blind listening test and I may have been influenced by knowing what cables were in place at any given time however I do have an open mind on this subject. I also now appreciate that any listening tests need to have an instant (or as near as possible) A/B switchover.
Certainly not Dave, I can confirm my ears and other bodily parts as human. The point I was making wast that many people I've come across know can't appreciate the difference between "lo-fi" and "hi-fi" let alone any differences in cables - maybe Mr Average wasnt the best generic name.
Fred, I have no real knowledge of electronics as I already stated so I'm just using my ears (human) as I've always done when evaluating kit. I already mentioned that I may have been influenced by the test not being blind, however, the comparison was done using my kit in my listening enviornment (as previously described) using material I am very familiar with. But have I rushed out and spent £750?? No.
John, I appreciate what your views are on this subject and the added scientific reasoning you have provided. By the way I'm with you concerning 9/11.
Is that comment for real??? Isn't that similar to saying only people who can read music and play a musical instrument should be allowed to have an opinion on their favourite band as surely only they can have a reasoned opinon on whether the music is good or not.
I've had a look at that article and it makes sense and seems reasonable, but surely enjoying music and hifi is about more than just science. Isn't it about finding something which you personally like based on your own tastes and preferences. Who cares if someone can prove that their system is "better". Its like saying i can prrove you taste in music is rubbish becuase that band play in 4:4 time when 2:4 time is technically better (i don't know if thats true but i hope you can see my point).
When i'm buying speakers do i care about about frequency response or sesitivity? Not really because i don't know what that means! What i care about is the sound, do i like it, is it exciting, does it make me want to sit down and spend 15 mins of my life listening to Telegraph Road by Dire Straits. Surely these are the important points about hifi even if they can't be proved?
If this means i'm not qualified to have an opinion on hifi please let me know.
