Yes I certainly am experimenting and as a direct result form this thread, and your input is much valued.
By the way unlike yourself I cant detect any difference to the presentation if my vertical blinds (I dont have curtains) are open/shut or midway (but they are on the side of the room not front/back)
I agree that 2 ft from the rear wall is not enough for the 989s say at least 3 ft but I tend to do 4-5 ft, and yes the toe-in will influence side wall refelections, so moving them away from from side walls when toed-in will help here. I think I said in a earlier post that I wish my room was about 4-5ft wider, the reason being so I could do judt that and move the ESLs away from the side walls by a couple of ft or so each. I'd also say that my room 24 by 13'10 and is just about big enough for the 989s. I've checked and they are just uder 9ft apart the measured from the inner edge of each speaker. I've tried them closer together but the image was too closed for me in comparison - I felt I had to sit that much closer (too close) to compensate.
I see you're still a vinyl man - I only got back into hi-fi about 7 years ago when I suddenly heard music from a CD front end for the first time ever and decided then to move to a CD front end. In the 1980s, I used to have a Thorens TD something or other with a SM3 arm and an A&R cartridge, and when it was tested agianst a Linn (not as highly specc'd as yours) it gave a surprisingly good account of itself.
Re sibilance, it can be a right pain to eliminate when recording without it sounding like you have a lisp however as you know, we all have different voices then again different mic's and placement can help to control it. On my system I've tried the Vertex "anti-RF" cables and filters but it didint really eliminate sibilance - if indeed RF was the cause.
Coming back to cables for a second, my system only uses one pair of interconnects and any changes they might make are, to my ears and on my system, readily detectable.
Regards
Apologies for my spelling but the spell checker comes up with an error when I try and use it.
Indeed, if your blinds are off to the side of your room, then I would expect the 989s to ignore them completely, because these speakers are 100% directional, with no lateral dispersion whatsoever. In my case the front-wave travels the length of the room, rebounds then arrives back at the blinds at the other end where the delayed sound can be influenced.
11ft pitch is pretty wide ! Interesting how differently speakers can behave. With MLs you can end up with them a lot closer together than you'd expect (in my case 6.75ft pitch), but still get a wide soundstage?
You heard a CD front end for the first time 7 years ago ? Now THAT is impressive . I only wish I could say the same Joking apart, I must admit that I have a natural tendency to be a "first adopter" but my earliest experiences of CD when it was released were singularly disappointing. Of course Philips launched CD only to relaunch a year later due to general lack of interest. (The people most likely to buy probably auditioned it then said "no thanks" !) DVD was a different matter. There were multiple advantages from the start and it had potential. I was one of the first in the country to have a multiregion Player, and even put together a modest library before any discs were released in Europe. (When I was on holiday in the US I half-filled a suitcase with them ) So my CD replay capability stems from just such a Universal Player, although now, technically, several generations on from the original.
The Linn is a strange beast. In its various forms it has it's adherents and it's doubters. On the one hand acknowledged as a reference turntable, even by guys like Arthur Salvatore, on the other hand there is a general acceptance that there are better turntables - albeit at a price....My situation is very much one of "Where do I go from here?" Finding a replacement for the Linn as opposed to continuing to tweak it upwards, is a dilemma which I'm trying to address this year...
One thing I will say about the Linn is that until my most recent upgrades I suspected the source was too good for the rest of the system, as it had hinted at this in subtle ways. Only when the rest were upgraded was this fact fully realised.
Funny you should mention sibilance as an "illusion-busting" listening factor. I recall being at a classical concert in in a public hall in the City centre, where none of the orchestra or singers were miked i.e. it was an all acoustic concert yet found myself quietly thinking that the sound quality on vocals could be less strident!!
Cables : I've always maintained there is a "rightness" to sound when it is correct, and a "wrongness" - to our ears at least - when it is wrong. We can invariably tell the difference when those differences are so pronounced. Linking back to Sibilance above...even something like massed audience applause is a difficult thing for systems to get convincingly right. We've all sat in the middle of an audience, we know what it sounds like, yet from a 2-channel hifi system it often works out wrong. A useful test...
Re my CD comment, it was meant to convey that I heard music from a CD fronted system around 7 years ago as prior to that, I wouldnt call what I heard music - more like a harsh sounding noise.
I suspected as much ....had me worried for a sec !
Actually I've just had a CD "Day" this afternoon, one of my rare ones, so I can report back to Carl on the "Live at the Rainbow" Focus disc.
Surround Sound has it's amusing features where Electrostatics are concerned : Listening to e.g. Kate Bush's "Lionheart", you can be in the situation where her lead vocal is front-centre and 6ft tall and her harmonising "selves" are halfway along the sidewalls (immediately to your left or right) also standing 6ft tall (!!). This is particularly remarkable when you consider my rear speakers have only 2 ft stands (!!!) It seems a defiance of the Laws of Physics, but excellent entertainment!
The Stats have this amazing ability not only to stage between/outside themselves but to project these same tall images well into the the room, especially when given a little rear-channel assistance. Doesn't seem to matter how low the height of the tweeters on my (conventional) rear speakers are.
The way that my particular room works is that soundstaging takes place mostly on or behind the plane of the MLs, although I've heard Logans in some rooms that also image well in front of the speaker plane. (It may be a function of how far from the front wall they are.) DSP surround gives me that extra component...
Well I've done lot off to-ing and fro-ing and tilting and liting and toe-inning and outing and I cant get the image you've heard on your system ie outside themselves - the boundries of the image seem to be the height and width of the panels. Maybe I need another amp/CD combination? or maybe the Quads are not capable of this?
My preferred position now is basically as was i.e. 4ft from the rear wall (or as it happens from the redundandant ELS 63s (which reside against the rear wall) with the speakers apart as far as the width the room allows (just under 9ft from inside edge to inside edge) but with a slight tilt as provided by the small plastic wedges courtesy of my wife. This does give a well focussed image and provides a very enjoyable listening experience and my wife also noticed the somewhat louder presentation that the tilt gives.
I've yet to try the spikes as provided by Quad as basically, I cant find them
Not to worry about the height/width "parlour tricks" my friend, you have a fantastic and highly accurate pair of transducers there with imaging to die for .
I think the Quads are designed to behave differently from other Stats actually (Figure 8 response ??)
One of the things that interests me is the extraordinary bass response. Generally to displace that kind of air at those kind of frequencies requires real movement. Even the latest ML CLX (a massive 6ft tall) only goes down to 56Hz (!) so it is implicit that a subwoofer will still be required for the lowest frequencies. So the 989 is doing extremely well here!
The Quads also have a novel way of surviving arcing i.e. shorting out the speaker in shorts bursts. Have you ever invoked this protection ?
I've been off-line for the last few days due to lightning storm damage of my ISP. This got me thinking about warm up times for stats and migration of the diaphragm coating due to high voltage! Normally MLs sound best if they have been on for 24 hrs. (I'm unlikely to everdo this now !) Quads have a similar philosophy in that they recommend a long power up before use to enable the charge to equalise over the diaphragm. Problem is the new ML designs have a circuit which disconnects the stators if no music played for 5 minutes. This is to stop them attracting dust for long periods, but it also means that the only way you could establish a long power-up is to play quiet music through them.
Yes, the bass response is very impressive hence the extra panels no subs needed here and they rock too, these are not just for jazz/easy listening. Other conventional designs dont give the same thump and are often unrealistic in their efforts at bass IMO. Oddly enough the ELS 63s give an interesting perspective on bass - although the bass is not deep they provide a very clean/clear sound in which you can hear the nuances of different electric basses and playing styles which to me is fascinating. Other systems I have heard either turn bass into a deep load noise without any articulation whatsoever or have that boxy/middley sound that isnt really bass.
How would you descibe the bass presentation through your MLs?
Re arcing no. my 989s have not shorted but my 63s did. The 989s have so called "multifuse" protection circuit that reduces the the drive to speakers resulting in lower volumes quality loss if the speakers are overdriven for "any length of time" and "persistent" overdriving the will cause the multifuse to fail ........ then you're knackered. I cant quantify my listening levels in DB but I'll attempt to work it out but as modern recordings are much louder than older recordings, volume adjustments are necessary in any case. Think about it, I tend to adjust volume levels to obtain the most realistic listening experience depending on the material but with poory recorded material I just turn it down
Re powere on/off, I tend to leave them powered on in lengthy bursts e.g. a week or so at a time (plus sometimes I forget to turn them off) they dont seem to need an overly long power up time but I usually give them an hour. I think I prefer this scenario to your MLs cutting out after 5 mins !
Very much enjoyed your eloquent description of the 989/63s bass quality. I doubt that there are many speakers that can rival them for articulation being pure, full range Stats .
I can best describe the bass from my first experience of Led Zeppelin from the fully run in Vantages...the sound made the hair on the back of the neck stand up, but I also noted it was the most detailed delineation of the bass I'd ever heard, similar to your experience by making the listener more aware of textural qualities. Rivetting to listen to. It has to be said that the Vantage deals with bass frequencies below 400Hz by using conventional methods. This is a sonic balancing act which ML have refined over a number of years, but has now been "perfected" by using ultra fast-responding powered bass units in their new models. In fact the Dealer e-mailed me the other day in reponse to an inquiry about turntables (not trying to sell me the speakers because he knew I already had them!) just to enthuse that the Vantages in demo with hard rock really rock, unlike the archetypal image of Electrostats! In fact I mentioned to someone on the Music thread that you can hear detailing even within heavy metal albums by e.g. Black Sabbath, which constantly surprises.
It's clearly a trade-off compared with the purity of full range, but does confer efficiency advantages and sounds good provided it's done properly. I think it also allows the working voltage range of the Stat to be reduced, so typically you won't see much over 5kV? This greatly reduces the risk of arcing/migration - not to mention prolonging Stat life. Indeed arcing is almost unheard of unless some contaminant were to fly onto the diaphragm/stators (as with any other Electrostat!) The only exceptions to this might be the Final Electrostatics such as the 1000i which are a very innovative design...and very lightweight (comparatively speaking) into the bargain.
The fly in the ointment with full range is bass panel slackness over time? One of the things that worried me when making choices was the prospect of ripples developing in the mylar of the bass panels (not heard of this with Quads but certainly other full range models) which can often be cured by the judicious application of a hair dryer - which shrinks the film and re-tensions it? It might be worth taking the covers off every few years and scanning the corners of the bass panels with an inspection light?
The power situation isn't nearly as bad as it sounds Wotslice. The charge would take hours to subside but you are normally using them within minutes anyway. So they would only go into conservation mode if you had a double glazing salesman at the door! The Vantage stabilises and sounds good very quickly. Even from new, I've heard these things sound excellent virtually "straight out of the box".
On support : I tend to use spikes plus coins on a solid composition floor (tiled area). This helps to give the bass real texture (not to mention bite) when required. My rear speakers, by Musical Technology, stand with their spikes removed, on a floating wooden floor and sound fine !! (Go figure!)
You must be one of the few people around who just happens to have a pair of ESL63s just "lying around" spare !! An enviable position.
Bit more feedback on the bass : Not that I give magazines much credence but Stereophile tends not to award the Class A rating to speakers unless they reach down to about 20Hz.(Which probably excludes most speakers!) The Vantages only go to 34Hz at the -3db point, while the Summits offer an extra 10Hz extension down to 24Hz. Setting aside the fact that most domestic environments are incapable of realising the benefits of such low frequencies (unless you happen to live in the Palace of Versailles ) and given the size of my own room (about 28ft length), the lower limit I needed was mid-30s (Basically what I was already accustomed to). This said I've heard "budget" models such as the Aeon (whose new replacement is the Vista) which only descend to 43Hz sound very impressive in decent sized rooms. The Aeons were not only impressive on music but home cinema too e.g. LOTR : Cate Blanchetts intro was pretty breathtaking, with Kate presented as a tall holographic figure at the back of the stage, every ounce of emotion or inflection in her voice being realistically presented as if a real person was filling the air-space. Then as the Ring is being forged the next thing to hit you was the level of bass information - both from the fire and the heated draft from the forge convincingly wafting toward you (in only 2-channels mind you...sounding like full blown surround!)
The Vantage & Summit take this a step further with bass adjustability to tailor the envelope to suit room placement. The Summit has 2 controls per speaker and these really work. Generally I find when tuning the bass it comes down to adjustments as small as 1/8th of a decibel to dial in that final tweak, although it's possible that re-adjustment may come later as they run-in? Comparisons of Quads from the "grapevine" is that generally they find the Logans more dynamic to listen to however this is a biased view and I'm sure I could turn up some Quad owners who would gainsay that . Personally I like Quads textured and analytical bass performance even though some Quads are denied ultimate depth and power - quality over quantity! An amusing quote from a Reviewer I recall was "When it comes to air displacement Electrostatics have about as much puff as a half a packet of Woodbine..."( - but surely the "puff" comes from the User not the cigarette )
Best imaging is achieved when early reflections are minimised and when sidedness is consistent i.e. right side (early) reflections contrived to stay on the right side and vice versa. (I think one of the disadvantages of extreme toe-in is that opposite reflections could be coming at you early? However if they are pointing straight at you on-axis - extreme to-in or not - they will end up taking a fairly long rout to achieve a return path I would think....
You describe your bass in a way I can relate to, and it seems we are kindred spirits when it comes to audio presentation and listening experiences. It sounds like ML has got the mix of non-static and static ouput about right and you are to a contented listener Out of interest, do you play bass?
For your info if you havent read already it, the link below is (hopefully) to the Steophile review(s) of the 989 is below. The review it is very in depth to say the least, but says more about the overall quality of the 989s along with a technical analysis of them, than I can ever hope to. It does however also agree with my view of the slight toe-in required.
I thought it a but mean the 989s didnt get a "Class A" rating just becase they dont go down 20 Hz and I agree you that this makes little difference to the average home listener even though they can go down to just over 30Hz (ref review above).
The 989s have 5 degree tilt, so I think the additional tilit I'm applying to them with my plastic wedges is compensating for the spikes (that I cant find), so I'm now hearing them as they should be heard, but its much easier to move them around without spikes
Re room placement, as you know I diont use a pre-amp but I'm looking at the possibility of getting the Quad 99 pre-amp due to its "Tilt" control which apparantly can change the eq emphasis (in a subtle way) to comensate for room anomolies, however the mid-range remains unchanged. I'm also thinking of the possibility changing to a valve power amp but this a thought at the back of my mind at the moment. I didnt realise your bass speakers were adjustable, but this seems emanantly sensible to me for precise bass control.
BTW I havent had to apply a hair dryer to them yet but I will need to get them serviced within the next year. I wouldnt dare take the stockings off the 989s myself as with my complete lack of practicality, I'd never get them back on again.
Re the ESL 63s, yes, they are behind the 989s as I've nowhere else to put them. The power supply is u/s on one, but I havent got round to getting it fixed since the arrival of the 989s. As it happens I've got a QUAD 77 interlinked system (CD/amp/tuner) and I may relocate this and the 63s to a smaller listening room whch we are having done up, but I havent put this idea to my wife yet - some test of the WAF though eh?
Blimey....it certainly is a severe test of the WAF . Imagine having 2 pairs of Quad stats, loudspeakers that size, set up in dedicated listening rooms...where would the OH live ??!!
You'd have to set your wife up in the caravan outside (well you'd be living in the 2 "Quad" rooms most of the time anyway so you'd be quite happy!!)
Understand absolutely about the "anti-tamper phobia"....It took me 14 months to pluck up the courage to vacuum the MLs (a 6 monthly recommended procedure - in fairness I always kept them covered when not in use to minimise dust accumulation but also protect from sprays etc - it seemed to work as the sound was so good I seriously questioned the need for vacuuming)
You have no idea how alarming it is to hold a full pressure Dyson within a hairsbreadth of a 0.0005" thick diaphragm ! I had visions of the whole thing going "SLOOP" and disappearing up the hose! I needn't have worried though - they love it ! "The stronger the better" said Jim Power of Martin Logan, who e-mailed his favoured technique which is to shield the plastic nozzle of the hose with your hand as you pass it over the stators to avoid scratching them. (Very important with 5kV!) 2 minutes into the job the sweat begins to form on your forehead a bit ! (Stress rather than effort! I liken a Dyson to a rabid Doberman pulling against your hand desperate to sink it's nozzle into your Stators ! ) I've done it twice now and will probably leave them alone for a bit
Didn't realise the Quad 99 pre had that particular talent...very interesting...wonder how it works with other gear ? If you ever acquire one I'd be interested to hear how you get on with it?
(I'm working my way backwards through your mail here! )
(With Stats) Valve amps work for me !! There's just have that small ecological problem..... There is a danger though that the precise bass control that SS exhibits may be lost by the valve amp in favour of excellent imaging and midrange capability. I'm in 2 minds here though...the 989s are one speaker I would seriously consider a valve amp as a partner...
Reviews : It's not just Stereophile...I've seen many other glowing commendations. With a speaker like this on the Production lin it's a wonder Quad even tried to revamp them . Yes I'd like to learn what they experienced with toe-in. I will have a look...
Hi Bill,Wotslice,silly question,but how do these electrostatics compare to high end "traditional" speakers then,because if you need sub-woofers for the bass whats the point.........Dave
I don't think it's a silly question at all. Electrostatics compare very favourably against high-end conventional speakers but usually at a fraction of the price(!)
If you think of this combination as the equivalent of a "dual drive unit" speaker which uses an electrostatic tweeter but with a very low crossover frequency, that has most of the advantages of a full range electrostatic?
This not only applies to Hybrid assemblies like the Martin Logan Vantage or Summit, but to other Stats which need reinforcement from the separate bass "box". The latter does confer the advantage of being upgradeable as you could add a subwoofer that could go down to 15 Hz if you really wanted - at which point they start to compete with those Transmission Lines of yours for sheer bass output.
However, there is no compunction for the Stat owners to go down that route as many of them are more than satisfied with the quality (and quantity) of bass available from the unassisted Stat panel. It is something of a serious design problem to achieve very low frequency bass using a full range panel. Quad are among the few to have achieved a decent balance (although I believe Kingsound offer a 6ft door-sized full range panel at the ridiculously low price of £3K- 4K. I'd check the guarantee first though!)
Hi Bill, you,re really into the electrostatics arent you,my mate Bernie is going to use an oscciloscope to determine what the frequency is of these Trannies,not to sure what this thing does but he seems to know what he,s talking about,spoke to some guys at Super-fi about them and they said i should block up the ports on the rear of the speakers to increase bass output,but thats going to be a problem,as there are no ports on the rear of these Trannies,and i dont want to increase the bass output,i,m quite happy with them as they are,and i,m confused as to how increasing bass response has anything to do with my querie of their frequency response,or is they just didnt know and started waffling.I did find out that they were probably built in the early 90s and cost in the region of 4-6K and that if they are the Mk2 version then the cost would be a whopping 8K which is more than i paid for my KA100M mono-blocs and the pre amp combined so i,m doing a bit of detective work at the moment,but where to start?any suggestions,apart from forget it and just enjoy them............Take Care......Dave
Hi Dave...No it doesn't sound like you would need to enhance the bass output of those beasts (besides - putting them near a wall would be enough to scare the pants off most people !)
Seriously though the room itself is a major inhibitor....
Hi Bill,Beasts indeed! they are only 48 inches high[with the plinth 50 ]dont understand your comment about the room being a major inhibitor,finally got in touch with that guy in Darley Dale who reckons these speakers are 13-26khz according to the specs he,s found out and that they are the Mk1 as they only have 7 drive units instead of the Mk2,s 11,but i still like them,going to look at your "upgrade to the Rock" thanks for the advice mate..........Take Care.........Dave
Hi Bill,cheers mate, thats some turntable,but i think i,ll stick with the rock,and keep my marriage safe as opposed to her killing me............very slowly.........Dave
and decided then to move to a CD front end. In the 1980s, I used to have a Thorens TD something or other with a SM3 arm and an A&R cartridge, and when it was tested agianst a Linn (not as highly specc'd as yours) it gave a surprisingly good account of itself. 
however as you know, we all have different voices then again different mic's and placement can help to control it. On my system I've tried the Vertex "anti-RF" cables and filters but it didint really eliminate sibilance - if indeed RF was the cause. 
