Carl - the thread has been a good one, the only problem being that your original question was like asking, "what happens if you mix black paint and white paint". Grey. And as we all know, there are shades of grey.
For my own part, I am quite happy if people believe they are hearing something. If they choose to spend unnecessary money on achieving that result, I have no problem. It all helps to keep the economy moving and that is no bad thing. However, I have written, over time, several thousand words hereabouts on the subject and tried to explain, in mostly simple language, demonstrable truths - things that can be proven mathematically or experimentally.
Sadly, the more that people believe cabling has properties that science is incapable of defining, the less they are able to call upon any kind of rational argument, but need to resort to the standard
You must be deaf, a fool or probably both
Your system must be rubbish
There are sub-sections of the latter argument which usually start along the lines that your mains isn't clean enough to appreciate the subtle advantages of improved cabling.
Once you try to use subjective observation in an attempt to disprove scientific fact, you typically end up needing to throw the scientists into prison. My protagonists typically open as though they were going to disprove my science but such attempts quickly degenerate into slanging matches, and therein lies the problem. Please don't believe that I am of a closed-mind on this topic. Do not think that claims made by various vendors haven't intrigued me. But in over thirty years of careful experimentation and methodical testing, have seldom found an unexpected result. I have studied human perception, physiology, psychology, natural science and engineering in an attempt to understand what others claim to be hearing but sadly - I stress sadly, I have never found a result inconsistent with Ohm's Law. I say sadly because I would dearly love to beat some new ground - I could work my way to a Nobel Prize! I have never denied (here or anywhere else) that cabling makes no difference or that a mains filter cannot help if you have problematic mains. But the results you get are always entirely predictable by the physical laws that have been in place for 150 years plus. There are no more surprises.
What I do see is a world that appears to be driven by mob rule. Fashion, mobile phones, the food and drink we buy are all carefully sold to us in a way that tries to make you feel the odd one out if you do not conform. The marketing of technical accessories is no different. In fact it's a whole load easier because, on the whole, few understand the underlying science - thus enabling the market makers to convince the punter that if he doesn't have Nike trainers, his world is incomplete and he will always be second best to the Nike wearer next door. Sound familiar?
Just looked back at events today and at about that time I was replying to Tamara on 911, so I think this is some sort of wind up. I know I say some odd things when completely drunk say 03:45 in the morning but never at this time.
Apologies all round for a post that was not mine... John...
Nice one Pluto, have to agree when all the effects and the claims are analysed then the results are not based on scientific facts, placebo and psychology seem to be the only route to explain the unexplainable.
That reminds me, wotslice, I did as you said, and tried your lead in my system, you know what, it is still there now, the difference was so 'not a difference' that I never even noticed. Only thinking I really should return it, now where is it, Oh don't know - well its been in the system now for a week, and I never noticed. Is this the stunning, unmistakable difference that many attribute to leads, that inner sound-stage and detail, did I simply just not hear that OR did I simply forget that I had changed the lead?
Got to say i believe you mate one thing your not is someone that lies, no need to apologize, as that did not sound like your kind of statement ? way too short mate ? perhaps Dave Oliver can look into how that was possible eh ?
Pluto totally agree on your thoughts, people are like lemmings they will read/listen/ and follow others without using thier own brains, a weakness of us humans, i blame the conditioning of humans on our humble TV and our media, if they are misguided, then its up to people like you/us to be understanding, and let them have thier say, then show them the truth, "hard i know ?" but by confrontations we are getting nowhere ????
Thanks Carl, I had hoped that you would understand and I think you know me better than many on this site, yes way too short. Unfortunately when one is cornered in a technical discussion it seems almost impossible to counter it without appearing confrontational, I say appearing as that is often not the intent. When one is faced with a situation that 'simply cannot exist' then get told that one is 'deaf dumb blind and stupid' for not seeing it, then they are starting a confrontation, all I do is raise it to the next level.
Sorry that a very well intentioned thread here should degenerate into a slanging match, but that seems to be the incredible passion we have over cables. I recon 'low energy' light bulbs would produce a similar result or diesel - v - petrol, or home ownership - v - rental.
Undrestanding compassion tolerance respect and self restraint, are words that come to mind when confronting new members, must say though rik did give you a great run, very amusing, hope you will both get together, i bet you both will find each other, good company, i find him a very likable chap. all the best ....Carl.
Shame that Dave deleted last nights little event, as it was a bit of fun and maybe a little confrontational. It takes many personalities to make the world, but they all deserve a hearing, and yes Rik did give us a great run, and yes I do look forward to another. Now you seem to be the moderator, but I think events like last night will 'find their own level' just as world economy seems to be doing.
Yes I know it did get a little heated but is that not what passionate discussion does, as you know I'm not one to 'sit on the fence', honest yes, T5 yes, but no reason not to say what needs to be said. Not really a reason to delete them as by tomorrow they would be 'yesterdays news' and forgotten anyway, but at least still in the history of this thread!!!
Although I can't remember all the details of last night. But I did suggest a website WWW.PISSOFFPEOPLE.COM the reason is, that it is registered to me for this very purpose, just a T3 idea that may be useful in the future, the kudos of slagging another off in public seems so appealing that I bet many would pay for the privilege, just an idea you understand. Note Carl my whole life is simply imagination, no reality, just a dream, so I probably do come across as a bit 'off the planet', but always in the best possible way, and no offense meant... John...
John, it's not yesterday's news for newcomers to the site - it looks petty and aggressive. I'm getting really bored with deleting offensive posts, whether or not you feel they 'need to be said'. I haven't barred anyone from the site yet but I will if needs be.
And John, the only way someone can post as you is if they know your password. I've left your two-word comment up because of the response to it, which is valid. I'm all for robust discussion but not if it becomes a slanging match - even if apolgies for a slip of the keys are forthcoming afterwards it's often too late.
By the way what was the result overall on the yes or no responses.
I suppose Pluto from my reading - it is more than subjectivist analysis (those who hear differences in cables) there has been evidence given from those who have replied in more length. On my system people can tell when i have changed cables over quite clearly - any way i dont want t open up old ground, or reopen the boxing match. I think people may have had enough discussion on this particular issue on this forum.
For example: When we compared speakers cables such as QED silver to Kimber 8tc and interconnects Kimber pbj to QED Qnect 2.
Recently went into Hifi shop just to check out the latest stuff we also compared the interconnects on the new QUAD speakers too (worth more than my whole system around 5000 pounds uk I think), with all valve gear, high end Nordost cables - have to mortgauge the house just about to afford such luxurys like that.
Sorry I live in Aussie might be a bit hard for an audition.
When I compared the QED Qnect 2 I felt fatigued - to forward and bright in the mids, put on the kimber pbj more balanced and relaxing tried this a few times with similar results - other people felt the same. I had no agenda I bought both interconnects which was a mistake - I should of compared both before buying.
Dear Dave, I am most disappointed that you have left the post from John saying "Fuck Off" on here it is most offensive, considering you deleted some of my posts which used F**k etc and was only harmless banter yet you leave such disgusting things on here, is this the way a moderator should behave. I hope that people hacking into this site and leaving messages of this sort purporting to be from a member will not become a regular occurrence. Gerald, or if it was the times letter page "Disgusted South East England".