Are you willing to take the test discussed a few messages ago under blind conditions?
Given your utter belief in what you know to be true, a blind test should present you with no difficulties whatsoever, and I confidently expect a result sufficiently convincing that the sceptics will have their tails stuck well and truly between their legs.
Yes if it will make you happy because I have no fear of blind tests, although I personally don't see what it will achieve. If I can pass a blind test to please you, how will that affect your personal perceptions if I can hear these differences and you cannot?
My experience says that the cynics (note I don't say sceptics) will still argue regardless whatever evidence is furnished. The argument it seems is far more attactive than the answer.
I am quite capable of thinking 'out of the box', i would be out of a job if i weren't. However, things have to be within the bounds of possibilty to be worth trying. If every scientist/inventor who ever lived had spent their lives working on random ideas with no basis then they would never have had the time or money to persue the worthwile ones. When Rudolph Diesel invented his engine did he make it out of wood? Of course he didn't, was he not thinking 'out of the box' or was he just applying logical thought?
Logical thought and simple physics tells me that a mains lead carries no audio so provided it's LCR is low enough to allow enough current to flow into the equipment then it can have no effect upon the audio. As the cable is carrying only a 50 or 60Hz supply, the values of L & C are insignificant unless your power lead is many many miles long which leaves the only possible contributary factor to be R which is calulated very simply. Even a 1.25mm^2 copper cable of 2 meters long would only drop about 100millivolts at it full capacity of 13amps assuming the connectors were in good condition. This drop pales into insignificance when compared to the variations in mains supply voltage which occur throughout the day. Even these, except in extreme cases, will have no effect as the regulators in your equipment will deal with it.
To use an analogy, think of the mains supply as being a water main and your mains lead as being the pipe into your house. Now imagine this is connected to a pressure regulator which represents the DC voltage regulators inside your equipment. When you turn on a tap, the pressure at the inlet to the regulator may drop due to the restriction of the incoming pipe, but provided it doesn't drop below its set pressure, no difference will be seen at the tap. If we then replaced the incoming 15mm pipe with a 6 inch one, the pressure into the regulator wouldn't drop as much when the tap's turned on, but the pressure at the tap would be exactly the same due to the action of the regulator.
The same applies to your equipment, as it pulls current, the supply may drop very slightly but as long as theres still enough for the voltage regulators to work with then the audio chain will see no change. Fitting a bigger supply cable will have the same effect as fitting the bigger pipe in the analogy, i.e. nothing.
To use a further analogy, assume you lived on top of a hill and the water pressure in the main regularly dropped below the set point of the regulator. That would be noticeable. If we then increased the size of your incoming pipe it would still make no difference as the pressure wasn't in the main to begin with. In this case we would fit a pump and/or a header tank to increase the pressure and provide a reserve in times of very poor pressure.
The same applies to your equipment once again. If the mains were to vary enough to cause a problem then increasing the cable size would make no odds as the voltage wasn't there to begin with. What you require is a UPS to automatically increase (pump) or decrease (pressure regulator) the supply voltage and provide battery backup (tank) in severe cases.
Logical thought tells me and the entire computer industry that this is the way to combat mains problems (if they exist), so why not apply it to hi-fi as well?? After all, how many times have you heard the likes of Cisco, Dell or Sun recommend spending thousands on a lead to cure mains problems?? Of course they dont, they apply physics and common sense and use a UPS.
I'm not trying to 'have a go' at anyone here, i'm just trying to explain my thought processes and the logic behind them as some seem to feel there is none. Who knows, i may even be right, perhaps its the those who are trying to combat mains problems with a bit of expensive cable who are following the herd and not 'thinking outside the box'? Perhaps my advise might save you some money and improve your system at the same time?
Frank - if you can successfully pass a properly conducted blind test I believe it will be a watershed point in the whole debate. To my knowledge no such test conducted hitherto has ever produced a conclusive result so you have the potential to become the Uri Geller of the audio world.
Ground rules need to be put in place (careful, almost a joke there). I assume we are talking about a test of mains cables, nothing more - nothing less. What length? How many cables do you propose changing at any one time, and (roughly) where do they fit in your system topology? Can I assume that we are talking standard 13A plugs at one end and IEC at the other?
Can I also safely assume that this is a fairly standard domestic system, with modest current requirements - not a rig that requires 30A to supply the power amps . Under those conditions, even I would agree that the mains cable could make a difference!
Sorry Chris, but Pete's analogy is EXACTLY right, if you have a 'mains' problem, then do something about it.
Whatever a cable is made of, whatever the plugs are plated with, cannot and does not correct the problem.
Take a look at my reply 19/08 01:54. Now here is a product that will do more for your enjoyment than all the cables out there.
I also think with a little 'brain storming' between Pete, his sister and myself, it could be a marketable scam.
To Frank, good to see the passion so high that you even write on your birthday
'in disbelief when I read some of the utter tosh you people can write', well yes so do I.
You come on here claiming something that is personal to yourself, and take no time to understand the many solid scientific rules that apply, and dismiss such rules as 'tosh' simply because you personally believe in a non measurable, non identifiable, not understood, nonexistent problem.
We have come along way since it was first discovered that electricity travels though metal conductors, we're now into 24bit D/A converters, class 'D' amps etc. surly time to close the 'cables' box, and explore the REAL issues that will improve our pleasure, I'm sure there are many REAL improvements still to be made, like a new CD standard, a new and original speaker technology.
Up until 20 years ago we were still using a 'needle in a groove', MC speakers have been around for 80 something years, there is an area for change, even the full range electrostatic for 50 years.
Having first taken an interest in music and Hi Fi 46 years ago, maybe you can understand my passion in the technology, what is/isn't possible or even plausable!
Ok i agree that battery back-up isnt so much of an issue with hi-fi as it is in the computer industry, but a decent on-line UPS will remove all traces of mains variations, something that a cable alone can never achieve. I have to say i wouldn't recommend using a cheap UPS as these often use stepped sine wave inverters which do have the potential to cause a buzz. But for the money some people are spending on mains cables, they could have bought a top notch sine wave UPS capable of running the whole house. Although i feel this is, in most cases, well 'over the top' i could at least begin to see that there could be of some benefit in extreme cases.
To your second point... I have plenty of experience in audio ranging from domestic hi-fi to 20KW music systems to broadcast engineering, all three fed by many different cables at different times and the latter two from both the mains and from generators. In my experience neither i or any of my collegues have ever heard any difference, not even when one of our generators started running rough on 5 cylinders instead of 6 causing the voltage/frequency to 'hunt' slightly. The only reason we knew about it was because my collegue went outside for a smoke and thought the generator didn't sound right. It may have been running like that for a couple of hours but it was causing no ill effects and we were completely unaware of the poor supply quality until then, furthermore we could still find no i'll effects once we were aware of the situation.
The point i am trying to make is that any equipment which is even of basic design is well able to cope these irregularities. After all, the designer of the equipment must have done a great job or you wouldn't have bought it in the first place. If he/she was able to design the rest of the circuitry well enough for you to buy it, do you really think they would have overlooked the power supply and the mains lead so badly that joe public with little or no design experience is able to improve on it??
Pete - citing previous experience, no matter how relevant it may seem, is a pointless exercise in arguments such as this because the very thrust of the 'subjectivist' position is based on the idea that conventional science does not have an explanation for what its proponents claim they hear. Take a read of this piece on the Stereophile web site for a very interesting treatise on the 'subjectivist' position, and the letters that follow. Take particular note of the section in which the author attempts to explain why blind tests are pointless. If my understanding of the author's position is correct, he asserts that the holistic effect that a piece of equipment engenders by virtue of its appearance, look and feel is a critical part of the ultimate enjoyment of music played on that equipment. To extrapolate, if you believe that a certain mains cable is likely to make a difference, it probably will - to you!
Personally, if somebody tells me that they hear a difference from a change of mains short end in defiance of all logic (n.b. the same logic that created the entire rig to which they are listening), then the onus is upon them to demonstrate that are not i) lying, ii) bonkers, iii) deaf, iv) having a laugh or v) rather gullible.
The simple invitation to try it for yourself is inadequate because a negative result is typically followed by accusations of being a liar, bonkers or deaf. If someone is that convinced of their ability to hear something, then submission to a blind test should not prove all that difficult.
As it's your birthday. go on, tell us the equipment line up.
Pete, you sound logical and professional, now my idea of last night, I really would like to try even a small batch, to give away and get some feedback. In this case positive!
You're right Pluto, i'll give up trying to convert the unconvertable as it seems people will believe whatever they want to believe no matter how ridiculous it may be. If spending a small fortune on a piece of cable to correct a non-existant problem makes them happy then who am i to argue. I have offered my best advice on how to cure real mains problems which has been laughed at by those with no understanding of the subject simply because they've never thought about it themselves and the hi-fi press haven't brainwashed them into thinking that way.
There's nothing wrong with using decent quality cables but it seems to have got out of hand with one manfacturer trying to better the next by making more and more outrageous claims of their products and claiming that a grossly over specified cable is a 'must'. The sad thing is that people are gullible enough to believe it, which only adds fuel to the manufacturers fire, add to that a 'the emperors new clothes' factor http://www.broadviewpress.com/tales/emperorsclothes.htm and a multi-million pound industry has been created. The cable manufacturers are happy as they have a simple product, cheap to produce, little or no development cost involved and which people will pay way over the odds for despite there being no measurable difference from the standard lead. Net result=huge profit. These same manufacturers pay to advertise in the magazines, it would therefore not be in the press's best interest to cause conflict with those who keep them afloat.
Until someone comes up with a measurable difference, I myself will be sticking to standard mains leads and will continue to use my 4mm^2 copper speaker leads which are actually made from a surplus length of mains cable supplied with my air conditioning system.
Thanks - 'a true out of the box' design, a new and radically different approach to sound reproduction.
Having said that it actually arrived from my memory of 'wacky baccy' many years ago, when I always remembered how the -
sound stage tightened up, a new pin point focus began to emerge, the bass became extended and all the other superlatives I have ever read about happened.
That is up until 'pass out'
Along time ago, but serious equipment Thorens TD125, Decca London cartridge, Radford 100W PC valve amp and Quad ESL 57s, also with the power from the Radford the speakers could be taken into 'lightshow' mode, as a bonus.
A decent UPS will indeed make an audible difference if fan noise isn't a problem for you and you buy one of sufficient power - not cheap. Battery operation is a developing field in hifi although it has it's trade offs. Obviously, transformers are another route.
So you're saying that you've tried silver cables? Or just a variety of similar pro orientated copper multi strands?
With regard to double blinds, Hifi plus ran one, successfully and TNT is in the middle of one at the moment although that looks like it's only trying to test cryogenic treatments. The latter organization doesn't take ads.
I've had a glass or two of wine so I'm not quite as sharply focussed as usual so bear with me.
I used to make around half a million a year as a consultant changing ATTITUDES in industry and the commercial benefits on the bottom line to those companies was huge. While I was actually carrying out the assignments everything went perfectly, but when I left within weeks it reverted back again. It was great that I got invited back and got another fat cheque, so in theory I could have done that job for the rest of my life and probably for a thousand years more. I gave it up for many reasons and these days I am skint but far happier, but the biggest reason of all is that I finally realised one day that it would be far easier to teach a goldfish to eat it's dinner with chopsticks than to teach people that were incapable of learning. I learned too many years ago not to decry anything that I don't understand, but at least make the effort to learn, comprehend and absorb. What that did in reality is to make my learning thought processes so much faster and much easier to assimilate new information. Some here should do likewise.
John, when I tabled out the itinerary for your visit to Cornwall, I said some rather strange things that you would be doing while here, yet not even your curiosity was pricked by what I said. A smart thinker would have at least asked "Why do I have to listen to your system from the KITCHEN?" Now either you saw that as irrelevant ramblings of a fool (probably) or that you know all things already so the statement has no relevance to you. I also said that you should at the next hi-fi show you go to then you should do a certain thing in the corridor out side of the demo room. Why would that be?
This is a very complex subject so we'll do it one bit at a time. I do not intend to repeat myself. I will not attempt to explain it in technical terms either, just what is consistent and repeatable to command.
Starting at the humble freebie kettle end of the story, I said that it isn't how sooper dooper an upgrade power cord is, it's more to do with with poor the freebie lead is. Throw that junk out and fit as you say a length of 1.5mm twin and earth copper cable from B&Q and it will sound better than the freebie lead. Why? And how does this "better sound" manifest itself? If you are looking for a huge night and day difference you won't get it from this simple swap. Pay particular attention to the bass lines and hopefully you will notice "a tightening up of the bass", it becomes more solid and focussed with less boom and overhang. Treble too seems less cloudy and sharper, the leading edges of notes being a touch more evident. It happens with most hi-fi components, particularly amplification stages, but oddly enough switch mode power supplies exhibit less of these traits.
Up the ante to a 2.5mm copper conductor and you will probably get a better degree of clarity and less boom in the bass. Again, not a night and day difference, it is subtle but very distinct.
That to me is what clearly seperates the sound of the humble freebie kettle lead and a heavy gauge of copper conductor - that signature bass boom. As I also said, any of you people can do exactly the same at a hi-fi show as I do every year, by standing OUTSIDE of the demo room in the corridor and listen out for that unique "boom signature" from the music playing with and if your hearing is as well tuned to it as mine is, you can confidently say outside in the corridor "That system is using kettle cords" and sure enough a peek behind the components should prove you right. I can tell you now that 2 famous names have it, one begins with the letter "N" and the other begins with the letter "R". I am not giving any more away because the Heathrow Show is not far away. I urge you all to go and report back your findings.
Silver plated power cords are supposed to combine the best elements of copper and silver but in reality achieve neither. They sound brash and unrefined to me, especially with interconnects and speaker cables.
Then we move on to silver power cords. They too will exhibit this remarkable reduction in bass boom, but also reduce the amount of hiss the system generates and reduces the general noise floor so the music is more defined and tangible. A common expression used is "the blacks are blacker" or the "music comes from a silent black background". When one person says this the sceptics say "Yeah, right" but when the same terminology is being used time and time again in terms of hundreds of thousands then there is something there worth investigating. Easy to test this too; turn up an amplifier with no input to full gain you will probably hear plenty of hiss. Fit a PURE silver (not jewellery grade or recycled/industrial grade) power and turn the gain right up again. I do not say that every amplifier will perform this trick, just that those I personally have tried it on have done so, both solid state and even more so valve amps. Incidentally, I am told that Tripath amplifiers respond very well indeed to silver power cords.
Then there are some innovative new designs appearing on the market that I won't even attempt to describe because the cynics really will start foaming at the mouth in sheer disbelief. What I can tell you is these new designs are definately a cut above copper and even silver cables, but they do not use any ferrite rings or capacitor/resistors/chokes in their designs. It is from one of these new "think out of the box" cable companies that I have 2 of their interconnects. Bear in mind I have had an awful lot of famous named expensive cables through my hands over the years and to be honest the majority have mostly been a major let down for the expenditure. Arguably some have had a bass biased presentation, others have had a treble biased presentation, others will provide lots of detail but been very fatiguing to listen to, some have sounded positively nasal. One particular company makes silver cables that stand well above the herd so I have bought a pair of their silver speaker cables and never regretted that purchase. Then one day a chap brings an interconnect cable along to one of my bakeoffs and plugs this same interconnect into my system and immediately within mere seconds you know this is no ordinary cable. Suddenly you realise that any bass and treble you have heard hitherto through the hi-fi has been corrupted. After the bakeoff I really did miss that cable terribly. I now have 2 interconnecst from this particular company and the pair have done things to my systems sound that if I wrote it here you really would say "Rubbish, you are lying" so I won't provide the fuel for the argument, but suffice to say I reckon John Fisher had more chance of swimming the Atlantic with an anvil tied round his neck than leaving here with a cheque for £1,000.
I dont think a suitable ups would be that expensive when compared to the cost of the audio equipment. The rating wouldn't have to that massive for a domestic system as there would be little point in having a rating much bigger than that of the power supply transformers within the equipment it's running. They are readily available on the second-hand market, i have a 1KVa ups made by APC running 3 pc's and a server which cost me £6 on ebay with 3 month old batteries in it. Ok its a bit under rated for powering a decent amp but the point is it doesn't have to cost a lot. This is a 'line-interactive' ups which means that under normal conditions, the mains passes through as normal, if the voltage strays outside of what's acceptable it will automatically switch transformer taps to compensate as far as possible. If the supply is too far out of reach to correct, it will switch to the inverter and run from batteries. This has the advantage that the fan only runs when its on battery power. The disadvantage is that all the switching may cause spikes, however in reality it doesn't switch very often. Sometime i will try it and see what happens. The prefered type of ups would be an 'on-line' type where the load is continuously powered from the inverter and the mains input is just used to power a float charger for the batteries which in turn power the inverter. This type of ups provides pretty much total isolation from any mains bourne interferance or voltage variations, although they do cost more.
I have to say, i've not tried silver cables, although i borrowed various high end OFC speaker cables out of interest some years back and couldn't really find any difference between those and a lump of standard heavy duty copper. I'm not saying that there wouldn't be improvements over a thin cable but i could find nothing to suggest an improvement over 4mm^2 copper twin. With that in mind it seems pointless to try anything overly exotic for the mains as i see nothing wrong with the standard set-up and expensive cables made little or no difference when they were actually in the audio path. The only possible benefit i can see in an expensive mains cable is if extra screening helped with a hum problem, but this would be purely down to the fact its screened, nothing to do with the materials its made from.
. Under those conditions, even I would agree that the mains cable could make a difference! 
