The fact is we are all subject to marketing hype on some way or another.
Let us not forget the " feel good" factor. Most folks like spending money. Who can say they don't get a buzz from a new purchase. If that is'nt the case I wonder at the success of e-bay and other similar outlets, even including the humble car boot sale.
We all have to justify the cost, no matter how small, to ourselves, signifigant others and even complete strangers. I wonder why that is? Maybe a hangover from childhood.
If it feels good and causes harm to nobody why not splurge on that piece of cable or interconnect. You feel better for it and after all what the Dickens are you living for anyway? We all spend a long time in the box when we are done mooching around on the planet.
"if someone tries it, likes it and gets more enjoyment from their hifi as a result (regardless of your technical argument, which is completely beyond me as an non-expert!) then thats a good thing, isn't it?"
Knowing that my mains lead works just as well as one costing 100 times more gives me great enjoyment.
I haven't ploughed through all of the previous postings but I would say get down to the local hifi shop that will let you take home a mains lead on sale or return. If you can't notice any difference then you have saved yourself some money and excorcised the 'mains cable demon'. However if you can notice a difference and believe it is worth the outlay welcome to the world of ever diminishing returns.
Rob, you state 'welcome to the world of ever diminishing returns' I think that needs rephrasing to 'welcome to the world of zero returns' Having spent a day at the Hi Fi show, and of all the exhibits on offer, I think over one hundred, I heard one new speaker technology that stood out, and that was more for it's 'flat panel' look than anything else. Most was not up to a standard that I would accept as 'Hi Fi' thirty years ago.
Now is that progress, in that time we have had CD & DVD players, Hi def TV screens, dishwashers, central heating, performance cars, GPS, mobile phones etc. but in the 'Hi Fi' world nothing new.
Many exhibitors were using vinyl source, some unnamed pre-amp, 1910 technology valve amp and monkey coffin speakers, virtually identical to the best systems from 1960, yes 47 years ago, even the building trade has moved on in that time.
IMO what the industry needs is serious research into what actually is required of a system, research into speaker cone materials, cabinet materials, new amplifier technologies, only then can we break from the backward looking, retro view that is now being taken.
I have heard many remark on the similarity between good Hi Fi and fine wine, however on closer inspection - the wine equals the recording, and the Hi Fi equals the glass, it has only one purpose, that of imparting unchanged the original recording to the brain. Same as the glass has only one purpose, that of imparting unchanged the original taste to the brain. Here endeth the lecture.
John, my tuppence worth was, yes, a yellow Russ A. and a more expensive Powercord made a noticeable (positive) difference to my system but it did make a `better` job with the amp rather than the cd player. Interesting thoughts on progress as the latest German speakers being imported use paper cones and long-fibre pulp mixed with wool ------ hows that for research and development!
IMO the differences you observe are marginal at best, what I am talking about is serious changes that may take the experience from 'good' to 'extroardinary' as class 'T' did for me, and take a visit to Podiumsound , based in Cambridge, and offering something at least different, and probably better.
IMO the only way forward is through developments in 'speaker' technology, the rest is streets ahead anyway, now with CD players we can forget one end of the chain, amplification is so near perfect, we can forget that.
IMO it was unfortunate that almost all of the exhibitors were using 'vinal' and 'valve' technology when the greatest improvement to Hi Fi in the last twenty years was the CD, the one item that provides a source beyond question, maybe not ultimately the best, but far better than another conversion to 'a needle waggling around in a groove', and to date the best recording system on offer.
That only leaves 'speakers' and there is the answer, get them right and a new sound could be created, a sound so far beyond our imagination, so much better than we believe possible, and I believe it is possible with DSP and new speaker technology that I am fully up to develop it, whatever the cost.
John...
PS forget interconnects, speaker cables, and mains - they have no part in the equation, believe me, look at the maths, look at the realities, look at the probabilities, and look at the results !!!
"forget interconnects, speaker cables, and mains - they have no part in the equation"
Interconnects and mains leads definitely don't but speaker leads definitely do. I'm not advocating Moondust Flatulence platinum at £1m an inch, just the use of a decently thick copper cable.
Yea O.K. but I'm really getting bored with this subject, at the show I saw many exhibitors using massive cables, others using really thin cables, some using massive porcelain insulators to raise them from the floor, I saw 'bright emitter' power amps and massive turntables, mostly 100 year old technology.
I'm sure no one would ever envisage bringing out a new car based on 1907 technology, so why is it possible in Hi Fi ???
But it was a Hi Fi show, and for all the amazing prices, and amazing products, I heard nothing amazing, after not visiting a show for twenty years, now that is amazing.
What I did not hear is an effortless portrayal, a deep uncoloured bass, a sweet singing mid-range, what I did not hear was some new technology, apart from the 'Podium Sound' speakers.
John...
If anyone can call a cable 'Flatulence' then it must be a complete 'piss take' from the start, or you have more imagination than I.
I'm probably coming in at the end of an exhausting and circular discussion but I think wiring does make a difference.
I'll start with one John F may agree with. I replaced my £11 VdH CS122 speaker wire with 4mm twin and earth from RS circa 70p/m. It sounded much better with larger soundstage and better bass. I think it's just thicker copper wire for better current.
Recently I bought a Chord mains chord for my pre. I've been using Russ Andrews powerchords for the power and supply to my Linn turntable and the improvements were subtle and not very impressive. Not with the Chord. First record, first song very noticeably clearer and 3d with more articulate bass.
I've now just bought a vdh first ultimate for between the pre and power and that has made a big step up as well. I tried interconnects from Chord and transparent and they made a difference too. I demoed all of them for a week and referred back to my old interconnect. In terms of cost I was actually thinking of changing the power amp to something more powerful in the £2k-3k bracket so £200 was a bit of a bargain.
I have to add though the biggest upgrade I've made this year is buying some second hand Mullard valves for the pre. That cost me £15!
Slawts, you beg many questions, while I can agree on a decent thickness of speaker cable, the rest leaves me 'confused'.
You bought some mains cable, err, what for, doesn't 230V get down the original?
You replaced some used valves, with some other used valves yea. What part have valves to do in the digital Hi Fi world that we now live?
I built a Mullard valve amp just after starting junior school, now that was many years ago, are you suggesting that reproduction has not progressed from that time?
Are CD's and digital systems for the most part far superior in every respect, does not the vastly superior damping of a modern transistor amp outperform the 'flobby' damping of a valve amp?
Can you or anyone for that matter hear a valve, reliably and repeatedly, do you honestly believe that?
Maybe the difference between a worn out 'zero emission' valve and a good new one, yes I can understand that.
If you really want to hear some differences then listen to class 'D' and 'T' and 'Z', listen to some new developments in speakers!
Come to think of it, what do yo want a preamp for anyway, a volume control would do the job, no valves and passive.
Oh and why are you using a turntable at all, I remember the Linn unit, pre CD, late 70's I believe, err 37 years ago.
Personally IMO Hi Fi has progressed and it will continue to, the route it will take is digital, maybe more bits, higher speeds, but it will be the digital route, it will progress to digital filters, digital crossovers, and digital amplifiers, and for all the digits it will get better.
This will not be marginally better, not 'a some might hear it' better, no a significant change to sound, now why am I so confident.
In the mid eighties the CD emerged, and within in a few years it completely knocked out vinyl as a major source material for many billions around the world, the same has happened with DVD, completely knocked out VHS tape, for one very simple reason - IT IS BETTER - no other, no market pressures.
Trust me the digital world, given enough bits, is better, not enough bits is worse, note you can now phone Australia and the caller could be in your own town, you can now copy a CD ten times and the result will be NO DIFFERENT, not possible with analogue systems.
Sorry to rant about the subject, but I am passionate about sound, and the Heathrow show did not impress.
Now there was a reply you didn't expect, if you think I'm a bore, then stick to your 100 YO technology, enjoy the distortions, the response anomalies etc. and don't bother to engage, on what was a theoretical 'in depth' discussion, as you are obviously not up to it!!!
Note: from the early 70's virtually all recordings were mastered in the 'digital domain' so any further processing can only reduce their quality. IMO to take a digitally mastered original, then cut it to vinyl, then read it by a wiggling stylus, can hardly improve matters, at least take the digital master and put it to CD must be the next step.
I am passionate, not about convincing you or anyone, but about improving the standard, if that is of no interest to you, then you have answered your own question.
John...
PS note I am not interested in 'liking' but more of 'faithful', 'accurate', 'perfect', 'real' etc. after all the producer, produces the sound, the system only reproduces it. Imagine the 'wine' is the music, the 'glass' is the system!
Hi folks I know this discussion has gone a bit cold of late, but would anyone be interested in a blind cable test sometime next month? We’d need some cable fans and cable naysayers, for balance, and I’d be looking at trying out speaker cables, interconnects and power leads one weekday afternoon. AVR will pay your transport (within reason) to the venue, somewhere central London-ish, and we’ll lay on some drink and grub to see if we can settle this argument once and for all (or perhaps more realistically, have an informed discussion based on the evidence of exactly the same information reaching the ears of each of us).You can of course help us decide the criteria of how the test will be conducted –make your own suggestions and we’ll try to arrange it.Reply to me on the forum here http://www.avreview.co.uk/forum/forummessages/mps/dt/4/UTN/2028/V/6/SP/ or drop me a line at editor@avreview.co.uk
I agree with Slawts. Having two sperate systems. A void, audio note & ear vinyl system in my living room and a cyrus based system in my dinning room. Both comparable price range of about 6k. I purchased a russ andrews power cord from ebay a while ago. I was very sceptical but was amazed just how much of difference it made. Not night and day but definely cleaner with better seperation. I tried the cord on various peices of equipment and found that it makes quite an improvement of the amps and the phone stage.
I also have to confess that I too can understand people effection with rediscovering vinyl. IMHO I find my vinyl system more enjoyable to listen too. The biggest difference being the dynamics. There just seems to be a bigger presence. I also find CDs become tiresome after an hour or so. I find myself skipping less than favourite tracks on albums. The same tracks dont seem to tire me on my vinyl system which I can happly play for 3 and 4 hour sessions.
I have thousands of lps and about 500 cds. Just cant get all the music I like in one format. Each to his own i guess.
Heard some of the Audio Note gear at the last Scottish Hifi Exhibition. Superb. Even went back the following day just to re-audition some of them. They defied just about every rule in the hifi book. Huge speaker boxes shoved right into corners for instance. Spectacularly good results.
Fred. I know that you are really a good guy at heart because I've seen you offer excellent advice elsewhere in this forum but you really need to broaden your horizons a bit mate and give one of those leads a try. You never know - you might like it!
Hi Bill, re Audio Note They defied just about every rule in the hi Fi book, sorry but if a subject has no rules then it is Hi Fi, Huge speaker boxes shoved right into corners, normal practise in the 60's. Now I believe Fred to be a bit like me, if I had heard anything better at the Heathrow show then I may have been impressed, but I didn't, If I heard anything better anywhere I may be impressed, but I haven't, so equally if anyone suggests that I need to broaden your horizons a bit mate and give one of those leads a try.
Like Fred I would take little notice, after all why should I, sitting here listening to some of the best I have ever heard, and in the knowledge that Hi Fi is maths and not mysticism then what possible reason could you offer to make me try another copper conductor from the one I have, but I am open minded so please convince me.
This year I am planning to write a book about lighting, one reason is to dispel many of the myths that our government and people like 'greenpeace' portray with regard to the 'standard bulb'.
There are so many mis-truths out there that are regarded as 'common knowledge' and that is wicked. What makes it all the worst is that so little research is done before changing a law, and creating new ones. If the real issues surrounding 'low energy lighting' were scientifically scrutinised then the results are hardy 'black and white', rather more a 'knee jerk' reaction to popular opinion. IMO no reason to change the law.
I'll take your word for it on 1960s loudspeaker placement but did the average listener know about 6db X 3 LF boost back then? Most large loudspeakers today sound diabolical in corners although it does make sense to design them for corner placement as that is the most logical (and likely) place for the User to put them.
As for Mains leads, I believe this particular manufacturer offers to loan them for a full calendar month. It is unlikely he will ever get the opportunity to loan them to you but on the other hand if you ever feel like downing a few euphoria inducing tablets and feeling groovy...(groovi-er than you normally feel...)
Glad you are going to do an expose on Energy Saving Bulbs. You are the perfect man for the job.
Thanks Bill, unfortunately there are so many subjects out there I would like to expose, but Low Energy bulbs are at least one I have researched and have a little knowledge of. OK on the mains leads thread, good marketing, who is going to knock a company that offers that sort of service.
As for but did the average listener know about 6db X 3 LF boost back then? Sorry what is that about, I know we had bass boast etc. then but we still have is now, I think the terms are 'megga base' or something like that, it appears that very little changes in the Hi Fi world, most of the perceived desirable systems are based on 'fifty year old technology' vinyl and triode valves, really have things not progressed at all. Personally I think they have, speaker designs are a whole lot more focused, amplifier designs have eventually lost that 'class B sound', CD and SACD have bought new input to the whole scenario.
Hi Fi is now better than in the 70's no doubt about it, visit any pub or bar and you will hear sounds that you never heard in the 70's, visit any country in Europe and you will hear better sounds than you heard here in the 70's, yes hi Fi is progressing, but it still has a long way to go.
On the light bulb issue, if one were to study the total 'cradle to grave' events of a CFL bulb, the real cost of manufacture and the real cost of disposal and the likely real life, then account for the disposal problems, mercury etc. then factor in the fact that they take time to get up to full brightness, so many will leave them on, in it self will probably consume more energy, and that is without going into the 'power factor' issues, and how they may appear to save a few bob, but the supply companies are spending oodles sending you power that you end up returning 'out of phase' and not paying for - but they still have to provide it, and generate it and create all the carbon emissions to do so, sorry mate you have me on a passion here.
