I thought I had left all of this behind me 20 years ago but...
Cleaning mains plugs and interconnects really did make a difference back then, so given 5 days at home and a mid-range Linn system that had, to some degree, become part of the furniture I decided to check a mains distribution block (including some 'light' filtering) and matching leads.
I really didn't want to hear a difference (and thus save myself £800) but the last 3 days continual listening tells me there is a difference.
From the distribution block into my Ikemi CD player only, the 5103 pre-amp, and the 2 '2250' power amps were left on standard leads, because I borrowed the leads at short notice from the dealer who only had 3 in stock.
A journalist would, no doubt, invoke a multitude of adjectives to describe the improvements, that's beyond me, but I can say that I believe it is worth taking a couple of days off and borrowing some leads and a distribution block to see if it works for you and your system. It worked for me and I'm 100% sure it is not 'placebo effect' at work.
Ok I agree that dirty/loose connections can cause audiable effects, particularly on high current devices such as large amps. However, my point still stands, provided the supply voltage is roughly correct at the equipment and remains so under load, then there can be no difference. Another point worth mentioning is that the AC mains supply voltage is far from stable to begin with. Here in the UK i've seen a nominal 230 volt supply as low as 210 and as high as 255 volts. Surely this would have far more of an impact than a few hundred millivolts of drop in a power cable?
Your problem is you are thinking in tramlines and from the wrong direction. Rather than figure out why a sooper dooper power cord is so super, consider just how POOR the average freebie lead is. I took off a Schuko plug last week from a kettle cord to fit a UK 3 pin plug and the conductors were already blackened and brittle - on a brand new lead! The average kettle lead has less than 0.5mm conductors for a 5 amp continuous rating whereas a hi-fi amp can draw considerably more short term. Then look at the total loop resistance between the local substation transformer and your hi-fi. That AC loop is only as good as it's weakest link, so by taking out a cheap kettle lead with high resistance and often poor quality thin conductors and then fit a cord with 3mm high quality copper conductors and what happens? Put a silver power cord in there and it changes the ball game again, not just in resistance terms but it has been noted that using silver cables also produce less system hiss. Little known too is that some national grid transmission line cables also have silver wire inserts in addition to the steel and aluminium.
Ok, to set the record straight, i'm not suggesting that it makes no difference if you use dirty, damaged or undersized leads and i wouldn't suggest that anyone did. What i am saying is that there can be no difference between a suitably rated copper mains lead in good condition costing maybe £10 and a lead made of more exotic materials costing, in some cases, several hundred pounds.
To illustrate my point i have done some calculations to compare resistance and voltage drop of silver and copper cables. We'll assume a C.S.A. of 1.5mm^2 (13 amp mains lead) and a length of 2 metres.
Copper wire of this size has a resistance of 0.0268 ohms per metre, we have 2 cores carrying current (live and neutral) each of which is 2 metres long. So the maths looks like this:
2 metres x 2 cores x 0.0268 ohms = 0.1072 ohms for the entire copper cable (excluding connectors)
Silver wire of the same size has a resistance of 0.0253 ohms per metre so we get this:
2 metres x 2 cores x 0.0253 ohms = 0.1012 ohms for the silver cable.
To translate this into voltage drop, i will assume absolute worst case, i.e. that the cable is carrying its full rated current of 13 amps.
For copper we have 0.1072 ohms x 13 amps = 1.39 volts
For silver we have 0.1013 ohms x 13 amps = 1.32 volts
So we have a difference of 70 millivolts between silver and copper of the same size at full load. No equipment is going to notice that, in fact, my industry standard Fluke digital multimeter costing in excess of £100 will only read down to the nearest 100mV at 230 volts so your audio equipment has no chance of detecting it whatsoever. Besides, the incoming supply to your house will vary many times more than this in the space of a few minutes anyway.
If were really bothered about mains leads then just get a heavier copper one. 2.5mm^2 copper @ 0.00669 ohms per metre x 2 metres x 2 cores = 0.027 ohms. 0.027 ohms x 13 amps = 0.351 volts. Nearly 4 times better than the 1.5mm silver at a fraction of the cost, not that there was even anything wrong with the 1.5mm copper in the first place.
In summary:
1) Given the same sizes, silver isnt that much different from copper electrically.
2) Given the same sizes silver is far more costly than copper.
3) If a reasonable quality piece of test equipment designed to measure voltage cant reliably detect a change this small then an audio amp certainly cant.
4) The electrical supply to your house is far from stable in the first place to the point of completely masking the already insignificant voltage drop across a mains lead.
5) If you still feel you need silver power leads, get some heavier copper ones and spend the money you save on something which makes a difference.
This is all backwards. You're justifying results (ie that all mains cords sound the same) that you haven't achieved.
All those numbers may be correct but if you're speaking from a purely theoretical point of view and have no direct experience, they have little weight as evidence and at worse, they are actively misleading.
You've assumed results and then tried to prove them.
I currently work in the broadcast industry and am well versed with both high quality and high power systems. Previously i worked as an electronic design engineer before i got bored with being stuck in an office all day. So i have experience in both the theory and practise.
In my experience i have found no difference between any suitably rated mains cable which is in good condition. I agree that under rated or faulty ones can make a difference particularly on high power devices and that 'tired' connectors can cause noise. Screened mains cables may help in the reduction of hum as would the use of balanced audio connections, something which professional equipment has used for years but which the hi-fi market seems to have largely missed.
My point was that there is no magic about what the conductors are made of, its just physics. All the cable is doing is carrying an AC power supply to the equipment, it isnt part of the audio chain, no audio passes through it. Ok, in the case of an amplifier the current may vary with volume, but this is not audio, it is just a higher current demand. Provided the mains distribution system is capable of supplying this without significant voltage drop then it makes no difference what the conductors are made of as long as they are of sufficient size. If the supply has come (in some cases) hundreds of miles on steel, copper, aluminium etc, then how is having the last 3 feet made of silver making any difference?
I fail to see how this can be misleading as it is just physics. I see the claims made by some of the cable manufacturers and the hype surrounding some of their products as misleading and some i'd go as far as to say fraudulant.
You still treat the cable itself in isolation. It is utterly irrelevant whether the supply comes from hundreds of miles or dozens of feet, it is that length of cable betwixt wall socket and inlet on the hifi that's critical (We shall leave out the subject of the fuse for the moment for safety reasons as that is the weakest link) because if the house wiring conductors are as thick as your arm it will make no difference at all. Silver as a conductor produces less hiss and mush in a hi-fi system, the same is reported from plasma and LCD televisons, so if you doubt that assertion then do the wise thing and try one for yourself. If I am wrong come back and complain, but please don't use guesswork, supposition and conjecture to make an absolute statement especially with legal barbs on the end. The laws of physics are not absolute either they are an ongoing process, hence 200 years after the discovery of electricity it was found to be flowing in the opposite direction to that hitherto believed, yes? Before you throw words around like "misleading" and "fraudulent" which are the words of but one individual expressing scepticsm, accept that MILLIONS of users of these power cords worldwide report both consistent and reliably repeatable results, plus cable vendors would quickly go bust with a return for refund rate as low as 20% but that isn't evidenced either as they are still in business. The cables have been double blind tested successfully too, so there is more than just anecdotal and emprical evidence.
I've just listened to 'Patience' from Lloyd Cole's Rattle Snakes album a multitude of times; I listened to the song 5 times on each chord lead to make myself sure I was familiar with the presentation of each lead before starting to switch backwards & forwards.
The standard lead -
is somewhat brighter (If I had nothing to do but listen to music all day I think this brightness would eventually cause fatigue).
does not convey as much detail - with the 'upgraded' set-up I think bass guitar strumming is more 'real' and the string section's notes certainly linger longer with the non standard lead - which adds to my listening pleasure.
Does not present LC's vocals as well, the non-standard leads makes him sounds more human/real.
Reduces volume.
So all in all - I am satisfied that there's enough benefit to justify placing an order.
Should I be reviewing other mains leads to see if there is 1 I prefer (maybe) or would I be better enough spending the money on more CDs (no - not judging my some of my recent impulse purchases!) or upgrading the interconnects (I think it's best I leave that for next year's holiday).
If you have the time or inclination get a dealer or distributor to lend you some leads to try at home - If I had tried to do this at a dealer's I would have felt obliged to make a decision there and then - trying at home removes that pressure and allows you to make a judgement in your own time and has made me 'comfortable' with my decision - remember the old addage 'buy in haste - repent at leisure' - it won't apply to this purchase.
It's important to note that some expensive mains cords add nothing and are a waste of money. Like many types of audio product, there is a range of results.
Pluto, That particular blind test was flawed for many reasons, the same reasons why as many blind tests have failed with CD players, DACs, amplifiers, even speakers. I would not hold that particular example up as a well conducted double blind test or "proof" of any description.
At the end of the day it has to pass one very critical test and one very critical test ONLY and that is ME. It is my system, my hearing acuity, my listening preferences and my musical perception, finally my money not yours I am spending, so beyond that the subject is closed as far as I am concerned.
If anyone else is sceptical, cynical, doesn't buy into the concept then fine that is their business and conscience. It isn't a life and death struggle we are talking about here, just another hi-fi accessory used within the concept of a harmless leisure pursuit, so the cynics I think would better spend their precious time saving whales or pandas rather than expend precious energy squawking about proof that mains leads may or may not make a sonic difference.
I would never have believed that 'sales of delusion' were so:
1] Widespread
2] Easy
3] Self propagating
4] And finally - so profitable
I'm sure given a little time, a good copy writer, and a silly useless product, then there is an opportunity to make serious dosh.
In reply to Simon C19, you state 'Reduces volume', so one particular mains lead failed to produce 240V to the power amp. Then tell me, where did the lost volts go??
If anything drops a voltage, and current is flowing in it then it must get hot.
So if it not get hot, did not drop the voltage then how ever can it reduce volume??
If it is that easy you should give up your day job and follow this wonderfully lucrative path to fame and wealth yourself rather than sneer at it. You seem rather adept at talking cobblers already so the rest should come pretty easy for you.
In reply to Simon C19, you state 'Reduces volume', so one particular mains lead failed to produce 240V to the power amp. Then tell me, where did the lost volts go??
Goodness only knows..., it is actually even more inexplicable when you consider it was only the lead to the CD that was changed (see my 1st post).
But if you had been here you would have noticed it too (for the removal of any doubt -there is no volume dial to be accidentally knocked and the remote was on a coffe table out of harms way). I didn't think to temperature test the cables...
I really didn't want there to be a difference and I certainly didn't want to name a product for fear of getting involved in a discussion about the merits of brand A v brand B, but I am off to return the cables to the dealer and place an order.
That particular blind test was flawed for many reasons
Fine - cite me some references for other tests that are, in your view, more valid. Find me any evidence at all that what you say is correct. You said earlier that
cables have been double blind tested successfully
so please show me the results. I WANT TO BELIEVE but so far nobody has been able to point me to any credible evidence. If such evidence exists, it will be there on the Internet.
I cannot fail to notice that most of the top class academics and professionals who have spent entire careers striving towards the better understanding of everything audio at both theoretical and practical levels have never accepted that a metre of mains cable at the consumer end (provided it is properly specified for the current in hand) makes one jot of difference.
I cannot fail to notice that the Audio Engineering Society, the premier institution for the study of all matters audio, dismisses this subject out of hand.
In fact I cannot fail to notice that the only bodies who treat the subject with any kind of credibility are those who stand to make money out of gullible customers. Do the vendors of this stuff cite any research they have used to create and develop the product? I can't see any.
Dr Stanley Lipshitz, probably the finest academic working in audio has said,
"If one reads some audio reviewers, one finds a strong negative correlation between measured performance and rated sound quality. This is particularly worrying as it implies one of two things—either many standard measurements, which are supposed to correlate with better sound, in fact do the opposite (which I do not believe), or else the component's aberrations are actually being praised as representing 'better' sound, whereas in actual fact they are errors of performance. This latter is what I see occurring more frequently now, and represents a disservice to the audio industry and the goal for which we are striving. I personally have met a number of well-known audio pioneers who have become very disillusioned at what they see as the triumph of the antithesis of all they have stood for at the hands of charlatans who trample on their ideals."
I dare say you will see fit not to answer any of this, but please answer this one thing. Do you really believe that the entire academic and engineering world (which created the machines that form the core of home listening) is deaf, incapable and, above all, unwilling to appreciate that of which you are so convinced?
Pluto, it is uttterly, utterly, utterly irrelevant to me or to you for that matter what Dr Stanley Lipshitz says, because if his findings and yours and my first hand experiences were reversed AND WE HEARD NO DIFFERENCES AT ALL what would you be saying then? How many people do you think I know personally that studiously analyse technical specifications before buying any component, then pay for and bring home the component(s) that sound the best to them, even though that item probably has the worst paper specs?
THE biggest variable of all though is individual's hearing acuity and perceptions, so when that becomes an objectively level playing field then some of your assertions MIGHT hold some validity.
I am still baffled though why people like you get so neurotic about anything like cables when in stark truth EVERYTHING within a hifi system will make a difference to the perceived sound and I mean everything from CD, DAC, pre-amp, power amp, integrated amp, rack, speakers, room dimensions, furnishing, carpeting, windows, ear wax, mood, hearing acuity, hearing perception, even the frame of mind you are in. Why then are you not demanding a frequency reflection plot for the new leather sofa for your listening room? Would you buy carpet A rather than carpet B because carpet B has a tendency to absorb a frequency band between 1 and 2 kilohertz? These are not joke statements they are real. So don't sit ther pontificating about mains cables, borrow a set from your local dealer, try them in your system and then come back and tell us about it. Don't worry, it won't cause your universe to collapse if you do/don't hear a difference, but make sure you try a cable that is CAPABLE of making a sonic difference as a lot of them will make only a marginal one.
'If it is that easy you should give up your day job'
First I haven't had a day job for twenty years. I earn a pretty good living from electronic design and assembler software. This may explain my insistence on factual truth, when I promise a product, it has to work, and work as expected, and that includes elements of physics and maths.
In software, a one character error in 2000 lines of code, and a unit does not work, no subtle nuance, but complete failure.
I've also designed hi res. video distribution systems, used by some extraordinarily critical people, feature film directors and cameramen. Anything less than perfect will be picked up on, the fact that I'm still in business tells me that for the most part I do get it right.
Check out fisherproducts.co.uk and have a peek, it is a no sales site, and originated only to 'have a go' at creating a site.
To Pluto,
Surly you can only bash your head against the wall so many times, as their is nothing to prove, have never even considered a mains lead and have read the link offered.
