Regardless of any argument, from the point of view of those of us who have actually heard (often significant) differences as part of our living experiences, do you honestly think that we could be convinced otherwise? It's like telling someone that black is white and that their perception is wrong.
I find it deeply disturbing that of those who earnestly believe that they hear "often significant" differences, nobody is willing to submit to a properly designed trial which will guarantee that the claim under test (and only that claim) is examined and proven to be true or false.
"Victim of a hoax" is hardly a consolation for anybody fool enough to part with more than a tenner for ANY single cable required for a domestic audio installation.
As interesting as all this supposition, theory and suggestions are, I feel you are all so qbsessed with the minutia you miss the big picture.
You can change cables, hardware, software, your listning room, your partner, your carreer, the colour of your hair(if you have any) or most anything.
The question is, do you enjoy what you listen to?
If so, great but once you start changing any or all of the above it is difficult, if not impossible to remember where you started from sonically.
Therefore you wander around in the hifi wilderness searching for a sound you might or might not have had in the first place. Possibly spending signifigant ampounts of money or time on a quest you can never achieve.
No matter how good the sound you may or may not have currently you torture yourself with the illusion it might be improved in some way.
Forgive me if I have missed it somewhere on this thread but has anyone considered how acute the listners hearing is in the first place?
This is the ultimate variable over which there is no control whatsoever.
"once you start changing any or all of the above it is difficult, if not impossible to remember where you started from sonically".
At least with mains leads you can be certain that it won't the slightest bit of difference so you're still in the same position as you were when you started.
"At least with mains leads you can be certain that it won't the slightest bit of difference so you're still in the same position as you were when you started."
Oh no, not another "expert" giving us the benefit of his sage wisdoms, relying on supposition and conjecture yet again
And what test do you propose that would prove your view is incorrect? If you think resistance, capacitance and inductance measurements hold the answers then you in for a big disappointment. Blind testing is about the most unscientific test you could imagine, when your are using a primitive method of objective test that can only ever have a subjective outcome using listeners with varying degrees of hearing acuity. Paul Upton gets pretty close by saying:
"This is the ultimate variable over which there is no control whatsoever."
because you should never assume that those folks that cannot hear these "differences" right now will ever likely to do so no matter what objective proof they are shown.
Metallurgy does play a significant role in power cord construction as does topology, but before you get all het up over that assertion, pop down to your local hi-fi dealer and ask to audition a silver power cord against a copper cord, then you might be in a stronger position to debae the matter. That's all I'm going to say because I expect another "expert" will be along soon to impart some more sage wisdom upon us all.
"pop down to your local hi-fi dealer and ask to audition a silver power cord against a copper cord,"
There is no point in trying to listen for a difference in something that can't possibly make a difference. You can only kid yourself if you're ignorant about electronics.
"Blind testing is about the most unscientific test you could imagine"
What complete codswallop. Blind testing with only two variables is just about the ONLY test with any merit when attempting to answer the question "does swapping these two components make a discernible difference?"
I would be most interested to hear the argument in support of your assertion that blind testing is inappropriate.
As it happens I am NOT ignorant about electronics, so what has that tough you, and yes I may be surprised who exactly I am arguing with, yes go on surprise me.
(note discussing not arguing)
I do understand the subject, and I do understand the limitations/possibilities, so what are you inferring here.
As Pluto has suggested
'Blind testing with only two variables is just about the ONLY test with any merit'
Are you suggesting that this is 'unreal' or 'flawed' in any way, if no panel of experts can consistently tell one product from another, then it is reasonable to assume that no differences exist.
Sorry but this comes from a background of theoretical study, not from any 'Hi Fi' talk, 'cosy pub discussions', and no 'armchair' ideas.
If I were to pass on a new idea about 'speaker crossovers' and class 'D' amplification, then you would understand where I come from, however this is so original, so different and so 'common sense' that you would jump on it. Therefor I will keep sch-tum until some results emerge, results that you will kick yourself for not thinking of, and an idea that is so blindingly simple that you will wonder why it has not been done before.
I don't know what you do in electronics, but is it original research, theoretical study, real design or what?
'pop down to your local hi-fi dealer and ask to audition a silver power cord against a copper cord'
Right they have no reason or intention to sell you a pricey silver cable, no of course not, they are not in the business to earn a living, no, they exist to enhance your audio experience, and they would never dream of selling you an extremely expensive cable just because you appeared to 'bite' on the possibility.
No of course not, they are after all professional sales people, not out to dupe you, no, they provide a personal service for your benefit, they have a deep interest in your personal nirvana and will do their utmost to deliver it - at a cost.
Wake up 'Hi Fi' world, if only it were that simple, wouldn't life be a pleasure.
But it is not that simple, every Hi Fi salesman can sell you a CD player at several hundred pounds, and not earn a bean out of the deal, but to sell you some exotic cables with a far greater 'mark up' well that is a different subject, this is where selling gets impressive and profitable.
They are all at it, Currys, Comet, even Richer sounds and many hi flyers and top end retailers, they all offer main equipment at excellent prices, but then, tuck you up on the 'accessories' like cables, five year guarantees etc., that is where the profit is, and that is what they want to sell. The initial equipment is mealy the incentive to shop with them.
If you really want to understand the Hi Fi market, then study sales and marketing, not electronics, not even probabilities, and certainly not reality, because there are no answers there.
If you want answers, the look a the technology, a class AB amp could sound different to a class D, an open baffle should different to a 'monkey coffin' but a copper cable to a silver cable, no I think not!
Look closely at the offerings of RA and other 'accessory' suppliers, check out their prices, check out their promises, check out the exotic cable companies, and their prices, then look at the equipment suppliers, and what they can offer, and how many products become cheaper over the years, and then conclude who may offer value or even results.
I may well be missing the point here, i am neither an electronics or hifi expert, but if someone wants to spend their own money on a mains cable which makes them enjoy their own hifi and music even more what is the problem?
If i was ill and someone gave me a placebo drug and it made me feel better i wouldn't complain that it wasn't a proper drug. If i buy a cable and i think it makes my hifi sound better i wouldn't complain if John could prove it made no difference.
Please excuse me if i'm being a bit naive but what is the problem?
"I may well be missing the point here, i am neither an electronics or hifi expert, but if someone wants to spend their own money on a mains cable which makes them enjoy their own hifi and music even more what is the problem?
If i was ill and someone gave me a placebo drug and it made me feel better i wouldn't complain that it wasn't a proper drug. If i buy a cable and i think it makes my hifi sound better i wouldn't complain if John could prove it made no difference.
Please excuse me if i'm being a bit naive but what is the problem?"
So are you saying because a fool and his money are soon parted making dishonest claims about a product and ripping people off is OK?
No what i'm saying is that if the person who buys the cable enjoys their hifi more because of it (whether or not you can prove it makes a difference) then is that person actually being ripped off?
OK, you go into a chemist with a headache and ask for some painkillers. They give you placebo sugar tablets saying they are guaranteed to work better than the aspirin you were going to buy but unfortunately they cost 10 times as much. You buy them, your headache goes, you're happy. Have you been ripped off?
Before i say anything else i'd like to say that i don't have expensive mains cables myself, personally i'd rather save some cash and do a more major upgrade i.e. amp speakers etc.
With the Asprin and the placebo example both do the same measurable thing, i.e cure the headache, therefore charging 10 times as much would be a bit of a rip off. However if the placebo also did something unmeasurable and subjective for example made you feel generally healthier then it wouldn't be rip off to the person who bought them
With the mains cables again both do the same thing, i.e. power your hifi. If you can find one which you think sounds better than another and you think its worth spending the extra money to get the better sound that you enjoy then thats not being ripped off.
I'm not trying to be obtuse here i just think that people get quite defensive on this forum. We all love music, we all have some disposable income (otherwise we wouldn't be buying hifi's), if one of us buys something and that something personally allows us to enjoy our music even more then i can't see that that is a bad thing.
"With the Asprin and the placebo example both do the same measurable thing, i.e cure the headache",
Nope. Only the aspirin can really cure the headache.
"people get quite defensive on this forum"
I don't see why. We're all after the same thing, the best quality sound. The difference between us is that I don't see why we should tolerate manufacturers that use pseudoscience to bamboozle music lovers so they can be ripped off.
Here's an example from an advert for a bog standard figure 8 mains lead.
Mains cables and blocks that actually combat background noise resulting in a dramatic reduction in high-frequency distortion and listener-fatigue, most notably at higher sound pressure levels. The improvements across the whole audio spectrum can be exemplified by an enhancement in clarity and projection of the mid-band, giving greater agility in associated bass performance
Just trying to make a point that its all down to personal choice at the end of the day. I love the sound of my hifi but its quite likely that many other people would hate it because its not the style of sound the like.
When i upgrade my hifi its based on time i've spent listening to potential upgrades, whether other people would consider that upgrade to be worthwhile, or value for money, is down to their ears and their taste.
"Mains cables and blocks that actually combat background noise resulting in a dramatic reduction in high-frequency distortion and listener-fatigue, most notably at higher sound pressure levels. The improvements across the whole audio spectrum can be exemplified by an enhancement in clarity and projection of the mid-band, giving greater agility in associated bass performance
Mains cables and blocks that actually combat background noise resulting in a dramatic reduction in high-frequency distortion and listener-fatigue, most notably at higher sound pressure levels. The improvements across the whole audio spectrum can be exemplified by an enhancement in clarity and projection of the mid-band, giving greater agility in associated bass performance
Well if someone buys it based on the marketing spiel then yes i can see your point and the marketing is out of order.
But if someone tries it, likes it and gets more enjoyment from their hifi as a result (regardless of your technical argument, which is completely beyond me as an non-expert!) then thats a good thing, isn't it?
