Sorry mate, but viewing your posting with statements like:-
He will NEVER believe, it's beyond his capability, capacity or comprehension, so he's best left bleeding in the gutter where he truly belongs. He makes a hobby of imposing his warped views on anything & everything he doesn't understand. Have a look at how many threads on this site alone he has expressed his dead hand views of........ Nothing & no one will ever change his obdurate opinions, he has neither the brain, education or ability to put his brain in gear before his mouth. He is the classic cynic...he knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing!
Now in the cold light of day, please read what you have said and see if any of it makes sense, whilst not wishing to boast here you have offered nothing of your 'brain' nothing of your 'education' and nothing of your 'ability' I think on all three counts probably about zero, you believe that you 'personally can hear things' that no one else can, and that you believe in all the clapp trapp of the Hi Fi world, all without any truth or verification.
As for my obdurate opinions they only come from experience, from observation, and from listening, not from any deep rooted beliefs, not from any technical aspects of the subject, no, but only from what I have heard and seen.
I like to think of myself as 'open minded' but never having heard the effects you mention am I not right to say so?
I seriously think that you need an education, even if not in science, then at least in 'rationality' or maybe even 'common sense' as you appear to not have a the slightest grasp of any. If you really seriously believe in the nonsense that you talk about then IMO you really do need help, and I mean serious help, an affliction like yours must impact other areas of life so I wonder how you handle them? Are you a happy and contented individual, or do you argue with every person you meet? Do you research life and find some truths for yourself? or do you just read the 'media' and watch the 'telly' and take in all you see as 'gospel' [definition - what you believe without question - the absolute truth] is that what you are saying?
I never thought that in this day and age of 'internet' contact and many other routes that anyone could be so 'cutoff', so 'nieve' or so plain 'stupid' and 'misguided' to have your opinions.
John...
PS I did not reply lightly, I did take the time, and I did look into everything you said since 233 when I first saw your reply, it is now 01:40 so not a quick or flippant reply, no something that I thought about in every way, every word, every nuance.
So Dave. tell me where did that smily come from. I did not add it, is your site so intelligent that it can create 'smilies' from words without any user input?
If so then please change it, as I would like the choice!!!
"Your knowledge of physics is now showing itself to be pitifully inept, you appear way out of touch with the present state of research in materials and what can be 'seen' the latest form of microscope can virtually see individual atoms! "
for a start i know pretty well what microscopes can see, but how many times have i said that we only "see" atoms when we look specifically for particles. include your electron microscope in that. if we look at them as waves that's what we see. in other words they are no longer behaving as particles. and they they no longer are particles. actually they are both. it's a strange world at that level and we don't understand it yet. when we are not actually looking at them we do not know exactly what they are or where they are. also the very act of measuring them affects them in ways we can't explain. add all that up and it's hard to see how 19th century physics can be applied to any model at an atomic level without raising big questions. i am asking some of those questions.
also you have a problem when someone says "i can hear a difference" and you say "no you don't". especially if you base your argument on a form of physics that does not describe even at a macroscopic level what's going on. are you also saying they are lying or just mistaken? either way there are a whole bunch out there that can see your application of science is flawed because they can hear a difference.
on a lighter note, has anyone heard on the news today that scientists have only just discovered the migrating patterns of walrus in greenland? upto now they had no idea where they went in winter. so, if they can't even track blinkin' walrus what chance do they have with blinkin' electrons....oh there i go again.
as for "and mostly tell me that you can prove that 'cable direction' is possible, or audible, then and only then will you have any plausable reason to continue this disscussion."
you will never ever prove it is not possible or even audible. with a basic understanding of scientific principles you would know that and why.
my position throughout has been simply that it is something i accept even though i may not hear it myself. if ever you have been in a situation (esp with the design work you did/do) where you have heard something someone else didn't, you have proved this point yourself.
found another peachy statement from you. here it is....
"but we all have to work within the constraints of physics because that is the limit, we have to work with the materials, the semiconductors,........"
semiconductors. you mentioned them first now. i will quote from a text book now.
"Modern fabrication techniques have made it possible to produce semiconductor devices whose dimensions are so small that quantum mechanical effects dominate their behavior".
and you thought you knew about semiconductors? you seem to think that this subject only applies in esoteric theories and not the wider world. how wrong you are......though you'd never admit it. remember you introduced the concept lacking understanding in physical principles, but every statement you make on this exposes your ignorance further.
I mentioned semiconductors not because of their particular qualities but only as the first example to come to mind.
I agree that the very smallest geometries may have some degree of 'quantum' effects, that only pertains to 'state of the art semicomductors' not to a 4mm copper cable.
Effects that you mention are only applicable to structures of angstrom size, therefore the whole 'quantum' bit is irrelevant to most normal size structures i.e. speaker cables.
I fail to understand your defence over 'directionality' when you yourself claim that you have never heard it. Sorry but can you clarify the point of what you are actually stating, can you clarify the point you wish to make?
In fact what is the point of the whole discussion, apart from deriding me for my lack of 'quantum' physics knowledge, what point are you making, after admitting that you cannot hear cable directionality, then what is your point?
Are you the guardian of 'wacky beliefes' out to defend every misguided 'audiofile' on the planet, or would you rather 'understand' some truths and get your own system up to the standard that you have always dreamt of?
You cannot even put a sentance to-gether let alone a system, your statement was not only crude but factually said volumes about your own misguided self.
even if you haven't personally heard a difference there may still be one. and your physics model does not begin to explain why there isn't.
there. i haven't heard it because ive never tried. that's to say i haven't deliberately hooked cables up the "wrong" way just to see. frankly too much faff. i may have tried if i was told they were directional but i had to experiment which way was which. otherwise i don't think i'm gaining anything turning the cable round to, well what, agree with the manufacturers advice?
incidentally, the derision came long before i joined this debate with electronics experience and qualifications and all sorts being claimed to disprove an undisprovable. none of which actually pertained to the subject in hand. that dear john is just arrogance. no one has actually researched this before discounting it. and those who have heard a difference don't have to.
your entrenchant position is best summed up in this:
[b]Nigel Tufnel[/b]: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and... Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten? Nigel Tufnel: Exactly. Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder? Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? Marty DiBergi: I don't know. Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven. Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder. Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.
and before you claim otherwise, no, you are Nigel.
and to respond to your last part , you talk of "whacky beliefs" and the "misguided audiofile" (sic) to descibe the many who just claim to hear something you don't. that tells me all i need to know right there. just why do you vehemently deride that which you don't understand, and more importantly , obstinately refuse to even try to?
for example re superconductors. you misrepresent the quote that stated explicitly that quantum effects dominate their behaviour to saying it may play a small part. this just shows your inability to assimilate new information when presentled to you, in addition one who just ignores the arguments you can't counter.
something does occur to me in that maybe it's just my own background (non physics based i should add) where there is a very strong emphasis on research, and therefore being open minded and seeing most things in shades of grey is the norm. also my own hifi could probably be described as a bit leftfield and there are some who wouldn't give it livingroom space, including ken kessler apparently. but it would be equally pointless of him to tell me it's a crap system when i can hear that it's not. we do hear things differently remember.
also , lets face it, it wouldn't take an understanding of "truths" as endorsed by Mr Fisher HND to improve my system. cash yes, starting with enough to by the ideal space to site it.....
Every time I think, don't bother to keep this discussion going, you send another long and often interesting post, and I get sucked into another reply.
Your last point 'it wouldn't take an understanding of "truths" as endorsed by Mr Fisher HND' no, dope and girls were far more fun so I never even achieved HND status.
As to the guitar amp knobs I never did see the point in eleven, maybe just a mistake that became a trend.
As to 'agree with the manufacturers advice', how many I wonder do actually listen to each and every cable.
I've had my Naim active system for many years & enjoy listening to a wide range of music. Naim were one of the original proponents in trying to convince customers that their cables were designed to sound best with their kit, and couldn't be bettered. To explain why their kit didn't produce a stereo soundstage very convincingly, it was said that they couldn't hear this on their master tape & hence it couldn't be on the record or CD medium, sounds a wee bit familiar?
Suffice it to say that I didn't agree and not one single cable in the system today is made by Naim or has the same topology. Surprisingly, I didn't spend a huge amount of money & settled for copper rather than silver or gold. Why?, again because on the day the esoteric stuff didn't sound as good in my system, in my room. Would it in others? don't know
I'm not sure from your answers why you haven't tried reversing a set of (two) cables, the whole thing takes but a few minutes which is no time at all to someone so familiar with the discipline of research. Or are you truly saying that you don't want to agree with the manufacturers stand point - just because?
Ray, you are now boring me intensely, from your initial rude/crude comments, your claim to be any sort of guru, and now trying to explain your cable weirdie's.
Note my picture is of the low power class 'T' amp, battery powered 12V, beautiful sound, pin sharp 3D positioning etc. etc.
Having just begun the design of a serious pre-amp with IR remote motorised volume control, VFD in blue and all the other exotica a phono pre-amp entails, I will leave you all to argue/discuss amongst yourselves.
Naim tried to convince people that their cables sounded better with their kit because their kit is of such crap design that it tends to go unstable at the slightest hint of capacitance in the load, in which case some cables would be disastrous.
To all those who see sense, john, pluto, etc good on ya, keep it up, i got no probs with you and respect you as you well deserve!!! However, i'm of the opinion that bashing my head against a brick wall fookin hurts and if people want to spend their money in shops selling more 'crap' than Gerald Ratner thats up to them. Personally i'd rather spend it on summut that makes a s**te of difference. For this reason, i'm leaving this thread and possibly the whole forum. I'm thinking of trying something more promising.... I thought maybe trying to convice nuns to become pole dancers would be an easy start compared to this. FFS dont believe the bullshit, dont be brainwashed by the marketing people, if it makes no difference then FFS say so, have some fu**ing spine, ok so you may have f***ed up and wasted money, admit it made no difference rather than trying to cover your own arses all the time and convince the rest of us to make the same mistake. I gave my best advice, i offered a rational explanation for all the effects you claim to see, but no, it had to be due to something else, the magical unmeasurable 'x' factor. Well, as you dont seem interested in taking the logical approach to things, i got some good news for you. IF you have an infitinte amount of time to try an infinite amount of random ideas, then one day you will hit upon the ultimate system. However, back in the real world, none of us have that time and so prefer to base or starting point on known science, not bloody voodoo or umeasurable, wishy washy, subjective views full of flowery words. Just take a step back and you'll reaslise what a load of old bo****ks it really is.
Well...
I guess i'm banned from posting on this site now, its been fun but at the same time made me wonder at the power of marketing. Think about it.
Wow Pete, if that gets you banned then probably worth it.
Howevever you have said it all, you won't get banned, I think Dave the editor is rather enjoying this banter, as for anyone who professes to be a Fi Hi Guru, well that is suspect in itself, as for what he says, well that is a great deal more than suspect.
I know yet again I said I would leave it all, but now having done the design, at least for the logic and display part, time to have another look.
I do find Frank (Hi Fi Guru)'s comments more than distasteful, even crude, and rude, and very misguided, however each to his own, particularly as he has never offered the line up of equipment, including 'esoteric' stands etc. and probably even more 'esoteric and expensive leads', I have offered mine, I have given a link to the web page, he has only have to look and will see EXACTLY what I have, and what I am talking about.
I repeat if you ever have the slightest inclination to understand the principles of class 'D' then read the article, please before you even suggest that Tripath is a 'pseudo class AB amp with bit of snakeoil', then research the facts, understand the principle, before you mouth off about things you have not the slightest understanding of.
As with everything in life, read up, learn some facts, then you may have reason to comment, but until then keep 'shtum'
Your statement shows to me the most blatant 'misunderstanding' of the technology I have ever heard and only goes to show your shallow and inept understanding for the subject - and you claim to be a GURU - for God's sake - grow up and get real - listen to the people who make he music you claim to improve - listen to the stupidity of your claims.
Yea so what happens when you 'deep freeze a CD' please tell me, how does that change the 'bit structure' on the disk, you must be the perfect customer for a Hi Fi salesman, willing to accept every bit of bull***t that he offers, and also stupid enough to pay for it!!!!
I’ve deliberately kept out of this for the past few days to see how it developed and everything seemed to go true-to-type for this kind of debate. I have taken the time to look around the web for similar discussions and noted their outcome. So what do we have?
Of those who profess a belief in the directionality of cable, the lack of any well controlled evaluations. Of the thousands of arguments that this topic engenders, it is remarkable that there are no documented tests, only hearsay. The reluctance, of those claiming cable direction audibility, to be tested is in itself odd, because such beliefs are usually espoused in terms so awe inspiring that the difference really must be like chalk and cheese. Another strange characteristic is the reluctance amongst the faithful to attempt to explain or understand the phenomenon about which they are so vociferous.
A constant tendency to bully or insult non-believers. ‘You are deaf’, ‘your ears are untrained’, ‘your system doesn’t resolve well enough’ etc., all little more than willy-waving. It’s as though failure to hear the effect that ‘every proper audiophile appreciates and accepts’ condemns you to some kind of underclass status. I simply cannot accept that, if this effect truly exists, that there are not sufficient folks with enquiring minds who have observed it who then determine to analyse it further. It has become a bit like an article of faith – once explained, it looses its appeal.
A uncanny correlation between equipment review outcome and price. Call me cynical if you will, but that doesn’t alter the fact that the ever-shrinking high-end audio business has a relationship with magazines that isn’t entirely healthy. No equipment reviewer has ever suggested submitting himself for any kind of ‘calibration’ test. Without any point of reference, what makes a reviewer’s opinion more useful than mine, yours or any Joe in the street?
But the biggest issue of the lot, sadly, is the thinking exhibited by the typical ‘audiophile’. You have to hear effects such as this to be one of the ‘in crowd’. If you don’t hear, you’re not one of us. If you don’t hear, it’s because your ears or brain or, worst of all, your equipment is not up to the job. The web is full of countless tales of people with hopelessly poor equipment who truly believe that spending a few hundred dollars on cables will truly make a difference! So we end up with the Emperor’s New Clothes. Just like in the story where there was a lone child who spoke the truth that nobody else wanted to admit, we have a whole community that has been drugged by the marketing-led conspiracy that cables need to possess a certain metallurgical magic before they are acceptable.
Audiophiles clearly need to learn, understand and work within the confines of two huge, related, issues. The first is that the memory of the human auditory system is much like that of the proverbial goldfish. A few seconds, a minute at best if you really work hard at it. The gullible cannot see that all the claptrap about burn-in is little more than a cheap ploy to exploit this weakness in the human makeup. Just about the only thing that needs burning-in is the average buyer’s brain. After a week, anything half decent will sound acceptable!
The second useful thing would be to study some elementary marketing techniques. I know it won’t taste good to many, but only then will you realise how you are being rogered up the bum without even knowing it. Audiophiles are a marketing exec’s dream. Where else can they sell such expensive snake oil – and have the mug punters screaming on the Internet how any attempt to measure the worth of the product is pointless because only their goldfish ears are good enough to make the evaluation.
I shall conclude with one tale which says it all.
"I had an epiphany when enjoying the greatly improved fidelity I was getting with my newly installed expensive interconnect. I was doing what we all do at the time, go through the favourites of our music collection hearing things not heard before when after an hour I looked at the input selector of my amp and was horrified to see I was listening through the wrong interconnect! At $1,000 a meter all I could do was laugh at myself, and then sell it. Very definitely a portion of the hi-fi industry relies upon the placebo effect for sales; pimp up the chassis, raise the price tag and it really does sound better"
My last post clearly says "my active Naim system" and that my cables are inexpensive copper, but that none of them are made by Naim. So in what way haven't I "offered mine"?
As to rude, crude etc etc. think I read somewhere once something about kettles, pots & black!
I have looked at your website. Your Quad electrostatics & must have cost you the thick end of £5k, but if this is what you like to listen to no argument here. Wouldn't be my first choice, don't think I could afford the speakers for one. Not that I wouldn't like them mind.
As to my being the perfect customer for a hi-fi salesman, I haven't bought any hardware for nine years, cables for five so no one is going to get fat from me. When did you buy the Quads then?
As to freezing CD's, supports, dedicated mains I've already said my piece about there being no point at throwing mud at the wall, or as Pete says banging my head off it.
