But as I stated earlier, it is not in the industry's best interests to reduce the buying process to something that can be easily quantified. The vagaries of timing and musical emotion are far more lucrative.
good point. i agree, but both side can coexist here.
Ear we go again, check out my reply on 'mains cables', we now have got to three pages on this 'non starter' and about seven on the most absurd subject of 'mains cables'.
Please WAKE UP to the nonsense the companies are selling, do your own research, find your own facts, only then can you possibly find Hi Fi nirvana, in the same way that all truths in life have to be found by individual searches, and will never be found though the 'mass media', check out '911 truths'.
For the most part, magazines contain adverts, these pay for the magazines existence, therefore they cannot contradicted the advertisers too greatly, or they would be out of business themselves.
It is in every-ones interest to sell high priced cables etc. that is what keeps the industry alive, that is what keeps the magazines alive.
However no one ever said that it had to be TRUE, and for the most part it isn't.
you say find your own facts but what are facts here? do you believe audio nirvana would be the same ultimate system for everyone? if not,do you accept we hear things differently from eachother? the best sound ever to one person is all but bearable to another. but they are hearing exactly the same thing. measureably. is this just personal preference? there's way more to it than that. for example take phase. some people seem to be very sensitive to this and others immune. but they are hearing the same thing. measureably. do you think phase has and audible effect? if so why not directionality when both are phenomena not everyone hears. therefore do you accept that there are are some people that can hear things you cannot, and vice versa?
how we perceive things is a subject all on it's own but if i may relate a wee experiment a phsychologist performed to fantastic effect. on me. very simple. everyone can try it. take a song you don't know, or at least know well that is difficult to understand. he did it with walk away renee by the four tops. it was played and we were to listen to the lyrics. i could make some out but not most. then he played it with the lyrics on a screen. then he played it again with no lyrics. guess what? yep i could make them all out. the singer sonded totally different. i was hearing exactly the same thing though. but now it was immeasureably different. still is if i hear it today.
all the measurements in the world won't detect that one.
i don't actually need the advice you give regarding company's selling nonsence. and whether or not they do, what has that to do with this debate? that's right. nothing at all.....
Let me ask a question to those who believe - what evidence do you personally have that you are not under the influence of placebo effect?
I assume that, having gone out on a limb and spent a significant sum on cable when (it seems) that a satisfactory alternative is available for several orders of magnitude less than you chose to pay, you wanted to assure yourself that you hadn't been duped. How did you go about this?
Many years ago I built and sold a 'talking' add on for the Sinclare Spectrum.
As a demo, it would rabbit on for ages, the text scrolling on the screen. Many found it quite good and purchased, but for a test, without the screen - almost unintelligble.
In reply we hear things differently from each other well not really, Hi Fi is about reproduction, not creation. Whilst many are insensitive to masses of distortion, probably the same with phase. But cable direction, if it existed at all would manifest itself as harmonic distortion, but still the same either way round.
Unfortunately the hearing psych is so susceptible and so easy to deceive that anything appears possible.
excellent question pluto. there is undoubtedly an emperor's new clothes issue too which is to the advantage of the dealers. you need to have a modicum of confidence to speak out, when the best amp on the planet with a price tag to match is playing, and you're sat beside an exaggeratedly effusive dealer tapping away with a sublime look on his face, and you don't hear what he "undoubtedly" does. there is gross manipulation involved in sales.
also i have enjoyed the pride of ownership that came with my first proper turntable, my first (and only) gorgeous valve amp (since stolen), and my top loading micromega cd player. i do think they sounded good too, but there was something else there affecting my decision to buy. i can't deny it. but that is also well known in design circles which is why many company's spend so much on casework etc. this may all sound ridiculous in the cold light of day but it affects us all to some extent. it's how we are wired.
all the above mess with our so called freedom of choice. you can get mad at the manipulation or just make sure you never buy something you are happy with, for whatever reason, and just enjoy it. i think problems come when you are striving for the holy grail and pour good money after bad for what is essentially a hugely flawed method of sound reproduction and that true realism is beyond our lifetime.
we really do hear things differently. that experiment is one in which the individual within 2 mins hears differently with long lasting results. another example is if i hear japanese it sounds impenetrable with no discernable words let alone meaning. but after a few lessons things change quite markedly. it's about signal processing.
just to really ruin your day everything you see is affected by your upbringing, culture, religious beliefs, training and so on. on a basic level these things make you who you are so how could they not? (and i don't mean you see a football and i see biscuit) these are the sorts of things psychologists have been researching for years and their tests can be quite brilliant.
i think another example is that i have found people with an interest in hifi have also by far a wider range of musical interest than others. why is this? it's not just an interest in music as most musicians i know have equally narrow tastes. for me it seemed to grow as my system improved, well faster even, and i think the reason is my hifi allowed me to "get" what the music was about more. something lacking in most midi systems. the interesting thing here though is my wider interest is sustained even in car radios. i hear a lot of music differently to how i used to and most around me.
what this is all leading to is that there are so many things affecting us and our ability to hear. physics, both classical and quantum (tho the latter kinda urinates on the former), psychology and philosophy to name but three. (i was going to include prejudice but it's not a subject). feel free to add to the list but you can't remove any. they all play a part. now look again at that list. how many of those things are measureable? few. (er....1?) and even then not in a meaningful way that holds many answers.
so there you are. some talk about the metals in cables not being sufficiently different to be audible, but i reckon it's way more complicated, and interesting, than that. i'm still not moved enough to even experiment with cable directionality. it should only at the very most back up the manufacturers claim in which case i'd have to turn them round again, and i'm not going to spend a fortune on new ones either. but i'm cetainly not going to decry those that do or even make outrageous claims for them. we should all see things in shades of grey, (and before you ask, no i'm not going to go into a polemic about whether your grey is the same as my grey......)
i reckon i have probably touched on new ground for this subject in these pages. there have been few takers so far which is a shame but maybe some will i dunno read about how an atom can be a wave or even just lighten up to let the bampots prattle about some of the more curious subjects within the hifi umbrella.......
I really don't see the connection between quantum mechanics and a signal down a lead, perhaps my blinkered, narrow minded, scientific view of the world of physics.
Hi Fi reproduction is after all 99.999% physics, not 'mystics', not 'blind faith', not following every suppliers whim or recommendation.
I do not claim to understand the wave/particle theory and at first sight does seen weird, but it is also an area far more subtle than getting a signal down 1M of cable.
Why oh why are you looking for such exotic explanations, you say I'm still not moved enough to even experiment with cable directionality. So what point are you saying, that everything COULD be true, ao that NONEof it is true.
To me the most curious subjects within the Hi Fi umbrella - is always cables and maybe a little bit of JITTER, there are very few heated debates about equipment, standards, even speakers.
Even less about topology, our real ability to hear, our subjectivity, and mostly our gullibility and suggestibility.
IMO these are the areas that need 'in depth' research, far more than a cable.
John...
PS the difference between a real top notch system and the average £500 system is enormous, way beyond any 'cable' effects, hence cables are actually very low on the 'enjoyment of music' agenda.
negative????????????? my negativity is aimed at the blinkered lot who scathingly put down other ideas or opinions because they don't adhere to their own limited world view. so who is the more negative? come on. i would like to promote debate, not name calling which seems to be the early preserve of those unable to form a rational argument. especially on forums where the normal boundaries of social interaction are removed by (relative) anonymity. where the problem arises here is that you claim it is impossible to hear any differece by reversing a cable. your engineering training and background tell you so. and the other bloke says yep, but i can actually hear a difference. no matter what you back your claims up with you are never going to change his mind, are you? he knows you are wrong. you however cannot claim the same, as you cannot prove a negative can you?
also, how can you possibly claim to have a scientific view of physics but blithely ignore or even acknowlege principles fundamental to that subject. (surely it's 100% physics?) you are basically using principles founded in the 18th century, and they work well enough up to a point. and that point comes where you are unable to explain such a thing like directionality. that if the laws of electromagnetism can't readily support a claim and we can't measure a difference it's a myth. i say in reply that these laws are too crude and therefore inappropriate for this application. also our methods of measurement are too limited. that HAS to be a possibe considerarion for anyone who claims any scientific credentials. these exotic explanations are just to say that there may be a real difference in directionality and here's why. i really cannot make this point any clearer for you.
i agree that there are vastly more interesting subjects but they will always be killed stone dead at the point where the argument boils down to "i can hear something", "no you can't".
your analogy is rubbish. stick to the subject in hand. as for being "perfectly spherical"....oh yeah? i may as well counter yours with if i gave you a directional cable.......
your last sentence says it all really. that is even cruder a statement than the one on page one talking about electrons acting like coins in a row. (was that you as well?) interesting you start with "think about it.." because it is clear one of us isn't.
can you not even countenance the idea that directionality may be an actual phenomenon?
As previously pointed out, if cables were directional, it would presumably be more noticeable with longer cables and higher frequencies. If this were the case the telecoms and power industries would be in big trouble. The radio comms industry would, on the other hand, be laughing all the way to the bank as RF isolators and circulators (which are used to make RF paths directional and cost about £400 a time) would be completely redundant. If such a thing as directional cables existed, do you not think they would have cashed in on it by now??
can you not even countenance the idea that directionality may be an actual phenomenon?
No I can't, and that makes me one of 99.999% of the population, and 99.999999% of the scientific population.
Forget for a moment about the claims of hearing, and think only about the molecules that make up a cable, and the way cable is made.
From a billet of solid high purity copper, it is heated to softening point, then drawn through ever decreasing dies to reach the final thickness.
From this we may see the molecules bunching randomly, not a perfect crystal lattice, if it did then it would be diamond or a 'buccyball' but certainly not copper.
When I said 'think about it' I meant think about the absurdity of what you are suggesting.
As for i may as well counter yours with if i gave you a directional cable, well yes if you could.
Pete I tried your e-mail route on this site, but to no avail, please try mine.
you should realise 99.999999% of the population couldn't care less. as for the other so called statistic, you have no idea but you'd find scientists are much more open minded than you. also you shouldn't be surprised to hear that most of them, eg geneticists, microbiologists etc, couldn't give a monkeys either.
it's absolutely extraordinary when you go on about how you can't see how quantum mechanics has anything to do with this and then talk about molecules and how they behave. you cannot separate the two. if we "see" molecules bunching or otherwise it's only because we are measuring them in a particular way. we have absolutely NO IDEA where they are or even how they configur if we are not "seeing" them. they act as waves too remember. now think about what that means. if the nucleus acts as a wave, where is it exactly? what about each electron as waves too? then extrapolate that to the whole structure of the cable (or anything for that matter), and what do you get?
you have become too entrenched in your position, and lets face it have been shown completely incapable of dealing with any of the issues forwarded. also you regress to the janet and john model of matter, and subsequently base your arguments on it. in fact you never progressed beyond just plain denial of a phenomenon people actually hear. you will never be able to prove this negative no matter how many electronic HND's you possess. what is lacking is independent thought.
my absurd suggestion is only that there may be a difference and your pseudo scientific expanations do nothing to disprove any such claim. it is precisely because i am thinking about it.
I Know ('cos I can hear!) cables sound different, cables are directional, if you deep freeze CD's they sound more natural, what you put your hi-fi equipment on is critical to the sound of the system, if you want the most natural sound from your system...set it up properly. Why? because it's worth it to extract the best from what you paid for. It still won't match a live performance, (maybe some of you need to go to a few live shows to remind you what music sounds like)but if you've spent the money..£100 or £10,000 why not try to ensure that it sounds at it's best.
This "discussion" is like two or three old pugilists carrying on the fight when everyone else has lost interest.
It seems to me that all that need be done is to listen to your hi-fi & then either accept or dismiss the proposal that cables are directional (cos you can hear it's so), or you can't because you're deaf, blind, stupid or totally biased against something you haven't tried because you are lonely, drunk & an ex lab technician with a chip on your shoulder because you didn't/couldn't get a degree?
Mr Fisher, if you're so adept at designing sound reproduction equipment then why buy a commercial T class amplifier? Althouigh why you should be interested in a pseudo AB class with a few snake oil bits & pieces is anyone's guess!
All this "debate" is just so much Bull...t & you need to give up gracefully & stop boring us all - or at least me!
Your knowledge of physics is now showing itself to be pitifully inept, you appear way out of touch with the present state of research in materials and what can be 'seen' the latest form of microscope can virtually see individual atoms! The latest form of audio measurement can resolve detail orders below our hearing, better than 25dB below.
What do you want from me, a 'roll over', I am beaten by your belief answer, well no I'm not going to offer that, having spent my entire life in electronics, be it Hi Fi, theatre sound, pop group sound, even recorded sound, quite apart from a background in measurement. I have designed valve and transistor power amps, part of that was serious listening tests, some showed up problems and these were resolved, as are all design problems, I earn my living from this remember.
I have no regular job, can't hack the management, don't want the restraints, prefer to do my own thing, prefer to think sideways or anyway that may create a solution.
I have no reason to go down the 'beaten path', many designs come from brain storming, the 'what may be', 'can it be done', 'can we try this' etc. all avenues are open, but we all have to work within the constraints of physics because that is the limit, we have to work with the materials, the semiconductors, the components even the cables that are available, that is design, we all have to do it, even the most expensive cable company in the world cannot create a new material or new physics to improve their specs.
Go research life yourself and tell me, what you find, tell me about your new discoveries, and mostly tell me that you can prove that 'cable direction' is possible, or audible, then and only then will you have any plausable reason to continue this disscussion.
Out of all this, the only thing you want to make comment on is "OLD"!!!?
What I actually said was "like three old pugilists" ie so locked into the battle they no longer understand what actually started the.. disagreement nor how they might end it. Maybe "punch drunk old pugilists" would be more to the point
Come on! Mr Fisher is so far removed from anything but his own madhouse that feeding him more (sensible, logical, intelligent) debate is just going to drive the old guy even more loopy than he already is!
He will NEVER believe, it's beyond his capability, capacity or comprehension, so he's best left bleeding in the gutter where he truly belongs. He makes a hobby of imposing his warped views on anything & everything he doesn't understand. Have a look at how many threads on this site alone he has expressed his dead hand views of........ Nothing & no one will ever change his obdurate opinions, he has neither the brain, education or ability to put his brain in gear before his mouth. He is the classic cynic...he knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing!
Brutal, but true!
STOP winding him up, please. I do appreciate your logic & argument but........
Now Ray, you are seriously going over the top on your first posting to state,
or you can't because you're deaf, blind, stupid or totally biased against something you haven't tried because you are lonely, drunk & an ex lab technician,
I am not a lab technician now, I probably am drunk, largely because one needs to be to reply to your drivel.
But more importantly, I am listening to a Hi Fi system that is not only beyond my dreams but also all others who have heard it.
if you're so adept at designing sound reproduction equipment then why buy a commercial T class amplifier?
OK fair comment, the reason is that I found it a lot more involved than first meets the eye, secondly others had spent many hours/months on it and thirdly they 'had all the answers' so why spend months 're-inventing the wheel', the class 'T' modules were cheap and good, a beautiful PCB, a good product, check out Autocostiure, also check out me
Please elaborate on pseudo AB class with a few snake oil bits & pieces That statement only goes to prove that you have zero knowledge of topology, technology, or even what you are talking about. (I could get seriously abusive here, but it is public so I won't), if you really whant to understand class 'D' then read my article here on AVreview.
How you have the audacity to claim in your very first posting:-
'you need to give up gracefully & stop boring us all - or at least me!'
Now forgive me but you appear to be in the 'twilight zone' with statements like
'deep freeze CD's they sound more natural'
Please have you ever put a CD in your computer and it read it incorrectly, it is the same noughts and ones that a CD player reads. Do you freeze your computer programs to improve it's spelling? I think not.
I think you are having a laugh with me, your ideas cannot be serious, and if they are then 'sectionable' comes to mind.
