Sorry but I'm lost for words, the only ones that come to mind might be regarded as swearing, so on this occasion I will keep my gob shut.
Only to repeat what I have said many times before, and that is, apart from seriously thin speaker cables, I have never heard, or measured ANY differences between ANY cables at all, after all, if a 99P interconnect has zero harmonic distortion and a bandwidth of 10MHz then what more can a cable do, how much better can it get.
Answer these questions and I will follow your theory further.
I do understand the problems of getting SVGA analog video down 100M of cable, now over that length any change will be multiplied many times compared to the home situation, but in my work we do it regularly, often for the images that you eventually see on a DVD or a feature film.
Take a look at 'Tomorrow Never Dies' look at the quality of the many 'video projection' images that are on that film, note that the camera sometimes zooms in on one part of a projected image and it still looks good, even though you may have only a third of the original 12 Ft image on your screen.
Now most of these images got there though pretty standard cables, not expensive, no voodoo or any other magic, but good solid engineering.
Are not the same principles applicable to my home reproduction system, or do we step into the 'unknown' when cable 'direction' counts, or where 'silver and PTFE' make such a great difference.
No I don't think so, from the people who wire recording studios, to the BBC engineers that set many of the standards that we regard as 'normal' i.e DAB etc.
I have never met anyone, in the professional business who regards cables as an important issue.
The 16 bit standard for CD was not arrived at though any discussion about cables but only from the desire to give us nearly 100dB of dynamic range, and it does that.
So please tell me what a cable can do to improve/distract from this wealth of information that we have.
As I have said previously on this forum, if anyone was interested in the performance of cables, then it would be the telephone companies, as they have the difficult job of getting conversations/audio down many miles of the stuff.
If you think, relatively, that getting a signal down half a metre from the CD player into the pre-amp can make a difference, then think again, whatever the cable, whatever the connectors, the whole concept 'beggars belief'
John...
PS as for getting a digital signal down half a metre of fibre or cable, well if the noughts and ones arrive in the same pattern then they are both doing the same job, if so then there cannot be any difference, if you put a CD in your computer and it reads the information wrongly, then you would have reason to complain, in the same way you don't put a CD in your player and the 'interconnect' gets it wrong.
That is just not possible, in the same way that an interconnect cannot get a sound wrong, or a decent speaker cable can not make any great difference to the sound.
These are all physical facts, not the talk of salespeople, but rock bottom physical facts, the same facts that got us the CD player, the same facts that got us DVD, the same facts and science that progressed reproduction since the '78 RPM' recording days.
It is all down to measurement and science, not voodoo, not magic, not silly claims.
In this day and age, if a parameter cannot be measured then it probably does not exist, take note Mr cable guru.
I have just replaced all my phono cables (most of which are the typical freebies one gets with A/V stuff etc.) with Monster phono interconnects (I hate that word - too bloody fancy) as an experiment. No, I don't have money to burn, but I am young(ish), free and single, so I spent about a maximum of £30 ($60) per pair.
Beleive me when I say that I noticed a very big difference in the sound quality immediately. Whilst I am no expert, I do have some knowledge of electrical current and the conductors used to carry that current. In general (a very big general), the better the quality of the material construction and the better the composition of the materials used, the higher the signal quality. If you send a light source down an optical cable, the attenuation of the signal depends on many factors such as the original strength of the signal, the ability of the cable to deflect the light into the cable and prevent leakage etc. the same is true of electrical signals/current going down a copper/steel, gold, or whatever, cable. Afterall, not all metals conduct with the same ability. And some metals conduct better when amalgim, amlig----- mixed with other metals. Also, the quality of the sheilding and its ability to prevent cross-talk or RF interference between adjacent cables is an important factor that engineers take into account when designing any electrical network of cables. Lastly, you wouldn't use a thin guage cable measuring 1mmDia. to carry a very high current or voltage without risk of the cable burning or melting.
So, I would, in conclusion, have to completely disagree with you. The quality of cable is VERY important as far as I am concerned.
Whilst I appreciate what your saying, remember an interconnect does not carry any current, so even of mediocre quality will do the job perfectly.
So please explain exactly what differences you heard?
And what metals conduct electrical signals better than copper?
In reply to your statement 'have to completely disagree with you. The quality of cable is VERY important as far as I am concerned.' well all I can say is 'prove it', I think that puts the lid on it, as you can't, no one ever has, and no one will, as there is nothing to prove.
You would probably suggest that you can hear which way round a 'digital interconect' is, a piece of plastic light guide.
Yea get with it, a plastic light guide is very similar to a cable, and has no possibility to change the sound, particularly as it is carrying a digital stream and not your beloved analogue information.
Please wake up to reality, cables have no part in our audio experiences, they are a marketing hype, very successful, but non the less a hype.
Read up on the subject, read up on the materials, the metals etc. find some truths, and research the fictions, only then will you conclude that the whole 'cable' nonsense is just that, the biggest lie that we all endure the biggest lie since the official report of 911 and many years before.
Thank you for yuor reply. However, there is one thing I don't understand:
"remember an interconnect does not carry any current"
The movement of electrons through a conductive material is what creates an electrical current. All interconnects carry electrical signals in the form of moving electrons.
Or am I being pedantic?
One cannot prove the difference in quality a good cable makes - it is purely subjective!
I think the point is that as long as a cable achieves a certain basic quality - for speaker cables, minimal LCR and for interconnects, minimal LCR combined with a physical geometry that results in decent screening, you are unlikely to achieve anything more.
If you read this board and others like it, you'll see that those asking for advice about speaker cables (and those responding to them) are primarily concerned with issues of frequency response. Attempting to use obscure properties of speaker cables because you perceive that your system sounds too harsh (for argument's sake) is a completely naff approach to the problem.
About a quid a metre should buy the best quality audio cable available. I disagree with John Fisher insofar as the biggest lie of all is related to so-called 'burn-in'. Given that they have dug up used transatlantic cable after fifty years continuous 'burn-in' and found it to be completely unchanged, electrically and physically, when compared to the raw unused specimens kept back for reference, it seems a bit steep when people claim that a few tens of hours changes the 'sound' of their bit of wire.
Reply to Izzy/Morris, I said an interconnect does not carry any current, maybe I should be more pedantic, and say significant current. As the audio signal is in the form of voltage at these impedance's and the micro-amps of current are only there to transfer the voltage, therefor the cable resistance is of no real consequence, as neither is inductance (at a few k-ohms). Now that only leaves capacitance.
If the driving source is low impedance, as all modern gear is, then that is also of no consequence.
So what is left to make cables sound different???
As to the line 'One cannot prove the difference in quality a good cable makes - it is purely subjective!' , yes I think so, yes I totally believe so, and measured it to be so, and read about it being so, from many hours of 'web searching'.
To Pluto, the line 'I disagree with John Fisher insofar as the biggest lie of all...' I can only think that a 'typo' as you then go on to agree re: the cable story.
I would be interested in reading that article. As much as I believe what I have written to you, purely from recent experience, I still would not pay exorbitant prices for cables - I mean guys - £800 for a peice of plastic covered metal 500mm long - you have to be *** joking!
Also there are, as we know, many other scams going on: such as "AV Furniture". Pardon? Somebody needs to get a life! (probably me, sometmes).
Yes, I'd be interested, with the usual caveats (no personal insults and nothing, thankyou, that might get us sued). But you know of course that I'd also commission a feature saying the exact opposite from one of the many who disagree with you. Come to think of it, it would probably be very like these forum threads...
Good lord Dave, yes it would be like one of these forums, unfortunately.
Do you ever think that I would be insulting or personal on this site, could I ever insult, or insinuate anything, have I ever done anything like that before, no, no, no.
This will be a comprehensive, technical, scientific study of cables, what is out there, what are believed the subjective differences, what is measurable, what is possible, what is complete BS.
More importantly, what are the materials, the conductors the insulators the dielectrics, what creates the impedance, and what can be measured, and of course what are the perceived differences.
An interesting subject, one I could have a serious T4 rave about, and I will, a subject that deserves some 'air time' as many seem so misguided on, to the point of spending more on the problem than any real equipment problems.
I have always maintained that to improve a system, you have to improve the equipment, the cables have no part in this.
Since my interest in Hi Fi stems from the age of 14, now at 60 I have learnt a thing or two, one important lesson I have learnt is that cables play a relatively small part, I say a relatively small part as I can see some aspects of the discussions, but only a very small part.
I will get our 'best chaps' on the case and report back from the laboratory in a matter of days.
"I'd also commission a feature saying the exact opposite"
That would be excellent, as long as both articles are written from a proper engineering standpoint. I think it's reasonable to assume that where cable differences are apparent, they are caused by conventional phenomena rather than the kind of 'science' that would make a good 'X Files' storyline.
In the last few weeks I have been looking around the web to gather as much information as possible about the whole cable thing, and it is quite remarkable just how few credible tests have been conducted. It's also remarkable just how much pseudo-scientific (not to say incorrect) rubbish is written on this topic.
Please do commission your feature Dave, but something that spouts the same old rhetoric about how a new (and coincidentally) rather expensive cable "gave me a lovely warm glow in my belly button" would be entirely pointless.
Yes indeed Pluto, but rather like these highly entertaining if occasionally vexing forum posts, I very much doubt that we're going to get to an absolute 'truth' that everyone will agree on.
On another tack, I was wondering if some of you would fancy getting together, either in person or via phone, to discuss the matter, which we might then include on the site as a podcast. Same rules apply as per the forum (no slagging off of individuals etc) but it might lend itself to a very visceral debate. Who's up for it?
I am one sad individual who wishes to discuss a non starter like cables for real, maybe a London West End pub, do we bring our own boxing gloves, or they provided.
The cable discussion is similar to trying to convince a 'jew' that the 'muslin' culture may be better.
It really has nothing to do with physics, or measurement, or anything real, it is largely a 'beliefe' a 'notion' a 'concept' that no amount of rational scientific input will dispel.
Unfortunately it is a non-discussable scenario, it has it's scientific believer's and it's gospel believer's, never will the two agree, this is unfortunate, as we all listen to the same things
The truth is that the science, the technology, the research. and the products that provide the recordings are not from the 'gospel' camp, nor are the broadcast stations that provide our FM radio signals, nor are the recording studious that provide our beloved CD's.
Neither are the telephone companies who get a voice message half way round the would with amazing results, in both quality and lack of echo, they do it all with 'solid engineering' principles.
Yet the 'gospel' believers are convinced that a mear one meter of cable between your power socket and your power amplifier can make a difference.
Yea really, It's like saying 'if I piss in the ocean' it will change the whole aquatic life form, and therefore the future of the planet.
Sorry but it won't make a jot of difference.
Check out the book, 'Sorry wrong number' by 'John Bignell' he is very into measurements and numbers, a fascinating read and so very true.
Yes - I 'm game for a laugh. When is the Heathrow show? My diary runs a long way ahead...
This would need a very good chairman: I share John Fisher's concern that the cable lovers' argument is little more than, "because it does". It is easy to make a rational argument against (as John & I regularly do) because science has provided us with the tools to do so. Those who would argue that the moon is made of green cheese have little to work with apart from screaming, "but it is"! This is why such discussions become hugely frustrating and quickly degenerate into mud slinging.
Instead, how about a well engineered ABX test opportunity for all comers to have a go? It would be near impossible to conduct tests with statistical validity in the surroundings of a rowdy public show, but it does have the potential to be great fun and a big talking point.
Well Dave, you now have two, hardly a big discussion point particularly as we agree anyway, but a start, maybe another eight and we may warrant a room at Heathrow.
I will bring my own boxing gloves, and full body armour, and a Tripath amp, and some measured results for all they're worth.
I'm sure either way it will be a fun experience for all concerned, and an education for everyone and anyone.
As a character I really do have little else to do in life, many are so busy that they have little time to research the facts, but I have the luxury of 'all the time in the world' and can therefore take the time to research these problems, and find the answers, and get to the truth.
That is all I could ever wish for, whatever time it took to get there, whatever it cost to get there, ultimately it is the truth that I seek and nothing else.
Whether that be Hi Fi, the world economy, the housing market, whatever it is only the truth I seek, not an opinion, nor an idea, no only the reality.
After sixty years of searching I think I am now beginning to find it, and having begun to find it, the findings are consistent over many aspects of life. Not just the Hi Fi part but also the earning part, the property part, the life style part etc.
Heathrow Show starts on 21st September (http://www.chestergroup.org/lsav07/) which is the day we'll be there. With you two heavyweights in the cables con corner we'll need some equally robust opposition from the pros.
"With you two heavyweights in the cables con corner we'll need some equally robust opposition from the pros"
Dave, I would be interested to hear what kind of debate you have in mind. As I hinted above, I have reservations due to that fact that the only debatable argument in favour of expensive cables is an argumentum ad hominem, "I can hear a difference even if you cannot". The only logical response to this is "you need to prove it under controlled conditions".
